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Ok, so the way I read the rule, you allocate wounds based in who is the closest model. Before saves are rolled you can attempt a look out sir to move the wounds to a new model, correct? I'm confused because I've heard some chatter about characters taking the saving rolls on their superior armour and passing failed wounds on to another model with look out sir. Can someone clarify?

The only time you can "Look out sir" after a failed save is if the character has the same armor as the squad. If someone is doing it differently they're wrong.

Characters and LOS have two ways of working.
1. When the character has the same save as the unit you roll saves first and look out sir after.
2. When he has a different save you roll look out sire before rolling the saves.
So if a cahracter with better armor stays in front he risks diyng if he uses his armor too much.

I'm sorry, but where does it say that if you have different armor you have to take the save first? I would LOVE that page for reference.

You look out sir immediately when a wound is allocated, for a unit with all the same saves this is after rolling for saves, but for a unit with different saves, allocation happens BEFORE saves.

If your IC has a different save, then LOS is before you roll each save.

Zoshonel wrote:I'm sorry, but where does it say that if you have different armor you have to take the save first? I would LOVE that page for reference.

Page 15. Read it all and you have your answer.

HoverBoy wrote:Characters and LOS have two ways of working.
1. When the character has the same save as the unit you roll saves first and look out sir after.
2. When he has a different save you roll look out sire before rolling the saves.
So if a cahracter with better armor stays in front he risks diyng if he uses his armor too much.

Technically, it is not because the IC has a different save to the unit, but because the unit has mixed armor saves. That might be because the IC has the different save or because the unit has someone else with a different save.

This may happen in any army if you have 2 ICs join a unit. The unit itself has identical saves, but one of the ICs has a different save to the unit. Even if the IC with the same save as the unit is hit the LOS is done before saves, and you may shift it to the other IC with a better save.

Necrons might also see this. If Orikan the diviner joins a unit of warriors they all have save 4+ so wound allocation and LOS are done after saves. However, if the warriors also had a royal court member assigned (save 3+) then you have a mixed save unit, so wound allocation, and therefore LOS is done before saves.

Wait a second here...I don't think you have this right...the Look Out Sir rule says "When a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters".

This leads me to believe you can LOS at the same time whether it's mixed armor or not.

Kevin, the key word is allocated. With like saves, you roll saves and then allocate. With mixed saves you allocate and then roll saves.

Happyjew wrote:Kevin, the key word is allocated. With like saves, you roll saves and then allocate. With mixed saves you allocate and then roll saves.

That's just it though, if you look at both of the sections for "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties", the standard method and the mixed saves method both start with "allocate a(n)"...So, for same saves you start by allocating unsaved wounds to models (triggers LOS). And for mixed saves you start by allocating wounds (Triggers LOS).

I don't see the difference you're pointing out, as LOS is triggered off of Wounds OR unsaved Wounds.

*edit*
Wait, I think I see what you're saying now.

*Edit 2*
Ya, after reading the two sections like 10 times now, I get it. Wow, that's pretty stupid if you ask me. Though I still think the LOS on mixed saves can be taken before or after the roll to save but with how it's written (and hiwpi) it's as you said. Maybe it'll get FAQ'd, or maybe that's how it's intended. *Shrug*.

I don't understand why people are having such a hard time with this rule.

The point is so that every model can get the benefit of the armor save they are entitled to. You don't look out sir after saves are made in mixed save units because obviously the saves are different and you are exploiting say a 2+ save from an IC in terminator armor and conferring it to a unit of regular space marines. You can't do that.

Rules for allocating are clear in the rulebook. In same save units, roll saves, then allocate (LOS). In mixed saves you allocate (and LOS) then make saves.

robzidious wrote:I don't understand why people are having such a hard time with this rule.

The point is so that every model can get the benefit of the armor save they are entitled to. You don't look out sir after saves are made in mixed save units because obviously the saves are different and you are exploiting say a 2+ save from an IC in terminator armor and conferring it to a unit of regular space marines. You can't do that.

Rules for allocating are clear in the rulebook. In same save units, roll saves, then allocate (LOS). In mixed saves you allocate (and LOS) then make saves.

You know why people have a hard time with this? Because it's the same frikken rule that operates two very distinct ways that make a world of difference and it would have been easier if they just made it work the same way in either situation.

Basically, it's just one more thing to keep track of now and it's kind of annoying.

Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Kevin, the key word is allocated. With like saves, you roll saves and then allocate. With mixed saves you allocate and then roll saves.

That's just it though, if you look at both of the sections for "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties", the standard method and the mixed saves method both start with "allocate a(n)"...So, for same saves you start by allocating unsaved wounds to models (triggers LOS). And for mixed saves you start by allocating wounds (Triggers LOS).

I don't see the difference you're pointing out, as LOS is triggered off of Wounds OR unsaved Wounds.

What you are missing is HOW the wounds are allocated.

With mixed armor you allocate the wounds from the wound pool to the closest model. That model can then chose to LOS! (if it is a char.)or make a save (normal or Invuln). You then allocate the next wound to the closest model (and it can be the same model that you just allocated the last wound too if he is still the closest) and choose to LOS! or make a save. Repeat until wound pool is gone, there are no more mixed saves or there are no more models to allocate to.
With the same save you roll all your saves at once. Then you take your Unsaved Wounds and apply them to each model one at a time from closest to farthest. When you allocate an unsaved wound to a model with FNP, it then makes its FNP roll. If you allocate an usaved wound to a char. it can then choose to LOS!.

Note the same unit can be a Mixed save group against one type of weapon, but a normal save against anouther. A good example is anything in power armor with an IC with an Invuln. If you shoot at the unit with an AP4 weapon they all have the same armor (assuming the Invul is 3++ or worse). If I shoot the unit with an AP2 weapon then they are Mixed save group as the power armor can not make a save, but the IC can.

FNP does not apply to if a unit is a mixed save or not. It is only done after a wound is unsaved.

gloomfang, I edited my post above. I get it after looking over it a bunch.

Also just to make it clear for anyone that is reading. It doesn't just apply for mixed saves and IC's. You can have mixed saves and not have IC's in a squad due to the squad's character such as a sergent etc
WG for example in TDA with power armoured squads or power armour WG with wolf scouts.

Kevin949 wrote:

robzidious wrote:I don't understand why people are having such a hard time with this rule.

The point is so that every model can get the benefit of the armor save they are entitled to. You don't look out sir after saves are made in mixed save units because obviously the saves are different and you are exploiting say a 2+ save from an IC in terminator armor and conferring it to a unit of regular space marines. You can't do that.

Rules for allocating are clear in the rulebook. In same save units, roll saves, then allocate (LOS). In mixed saves you allocate (and LOS) then make saves.

You know why people have a hard time with this? Because it's the same frikken rule that operates two very distinct ways that make a world of difference and it would have been easier if they just made it work the same way in either situation.

Basically, it's just one more thing to keep track of now and it's kind of annoying.

I know. It was not spelled out as clearly as it should have been. I agree with you there.

Sadly this is a case where they should have left it all the same rules as mixed saves. Allocate then Save. They thought it would save time in game to have a separate rule, but in reality it would have been just as fast otherwise and less confusing.