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Hi guys. New C:SM player here and I'm looking for advice for optimal ways to gear out Tacticals.

I know of the standard Flamer + ML + Transport but what are the other efficient ways to gear them out? What transports do you take for which loadout and why? I've never used tacticals before when I played BA in 5th so I don't really have any experience with them at all...Rhinos? RBs + Assault Cannons? Plasmas all around or Meltas all around? Or Flamers + MLs just the best route to take?

Any advice on how to best gear out Tacticals would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Most will tell you to load up on melta weapons for every squad.

My personal preference is to equip them with both an anti-infantry weapon and an anti-armour weapon. More often than not, this is a flamer/missile launcher combo, or melta/heavy bolter combo. While this is hardly the most efficient build, I tend to keep my squad builds intact from game to game (to build up some history if you will), so this setup suits me because it ensures they can potentially deal with multiple types of threats.

In 6th I've been running 3 tac squads with different specialties. First with Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, and a Combi-Plasma on the Sargent. Another with the same set up only with Meltas. The last one with Flamers and either a ML or LC. I put them in Razorbacks if I'm advancing and leave the heavy weapons to support, otherwise I keep them in Rhino Bunkers to keep them safe. Either way they have been performing admirably in 6th edition. Try not to spend to much on the Sgt, the cc upgrades are not worth it on tac squad imho.

If this was 5th edition everyone would tell you to throw powerfist on all of your sergeants. This time around I would say just a base chainsword or maybe a powersword for a cc upgrade for the sergeant, and give him melta bombs. For the squad I usually move my squads up so I would throw a melta gun on them or a plasma gun, and probably a ml. If you want, you can combat squad and have the missile launcher sit back and shoot all the game and throw the sarge and melta in a rhino/razorback.

That's interesting...I was going to take PFs on everyone but everyone says no...lol

I didn't think about taking combi's on them yet, but that sounds like a good idea. I'll try that out.

What transport to take? RBs? Rhinos? and why..

Depends on what you want to do, remember RBs can only fit 6 models, so if you want to combat squad and leave the heavy weapons behind, RBs are the way to go, if you want to have the unit stay together go with Rhino, the HW can shoot from the top hatch.

The only definite thing I can say when deciding between RBs and Rhinos, go buy the RB kit, it has the parts to make a Rhino as well, don't glue the top hatch into place so you can swap them and try both.

Transports is totally your call. When you combat squad you are essentially leaving 2 small units to fend for themselves. These units will not last long in a bad situation. Razorbacks offer some nice fire power and allow your missile launcher/plasma cannon/lascannon to take pot shots all game. Always buy the razorback box as it is very easy to jump back and forth from rhino to RB. I like lascannon/ twin plasma combo on my RB's, YMMV.

Personally I don't think you can go too wrong either way but rhinos are cheaper leaving you to add more units if you prefer.

Never take PF, at I1 you will likely be killed in a challange first and never end up using it. Plus its 25 pts! Meltabombs are a safer bet. I always take a combiweapon. There have been times I haven't used it but more often than not I am glad to see it on my guys when the time comes.

I like Flamer, combiflame, Meltabombs and Missile along with melta, combi melta, Meltabombs and Missile
or Plasma, combiplasma and plasma cannon.

 skycapt44 wrote:
Transports is totally your call. When you combat squad you are essentially leaving 2 small units to fend for themselves. These units will not last long in a bad situation. Razorbacks offer some nice fire power and allow your missile launcher/plasma cannon/lascannon to take pot shots all game. Always buy the razorback box as it is very easy to jump back and forth from rhino to RB. I like lascannon/ twin plasma combo on my RB's, YMMV.

Personally I don't think you can go too wrong either way but rhinos are cheaper leaving you to add more units if you prefer.

Never take PF, at I1 you will likely be killed in a challange first and never end up using it. Plus its 25 pts! Meltabombs are a safer bet. I always take a combiweapon. There have been times I haven't used it but more often than not I am glad to see it on my guys when the time comes.

I like Flamer, combiflame, Meltabombs and Missile along with melta, combi melta, Meltabombs and Missile
or Plasma, combiplasma and plasma cannon.

Thanks for the advice. I like that load outs you have as well! I'll probably do those..

As far as Rhinos, I understand that more bodies = harder to get rid of, but some things strike me as not that good with it and I'm leaning towards the always just take RBs side...

1) If you stay back to fire with HWs most/some of your closer range special weapons can't reach.
2) If you move forward to fire with your closer special weapons, your HWs have to fire as snap.
3) You can never fire all 3 out of the hatch.

With an RB you will have to combat squad your heavies out so they can fire so they are maximized with their potshots the rest of the game. RBs can move up with your closer ranged special weapons so they can maximize your effectiveness/shooting once they come out. RBs themselves are a threat.

Why would you take Rhinos other than being able to fit 10 guys in it?

syypher wrote:

Why would you take Rhinos other than being able to fit 10 guys in it?

Rhinos can work like a bunker. If you are holding the unit back, not moving, you can lean out the hatch and shoot. Why pay points for the razorback when you can shoot missiles/plasma out the hatch? Obviously this only works well when stationary.

And don't sell the 10 man capacity short. Remember: this is primarily an objective based game. 5 guys are not that hard to kill. When you need to hold a piece of ground to achieve victory, a full tac squad does the job much more reliably then a 5 man squad. You are comparing dedicated transports here. Their job in life is to shuffle troops around. If you want a tank, look over at the HS picks. Plenty of good options there.

If your battle plans involve combat squadding, sure, the razor has a nice set of guns for a minimal point upgrade. But don't underestimate the power of moving 10 men where you need them. Roll up, disembark, and rapid fire has been my staple tactic for a while now. And it works.

Personally, I take a combi-flamer and melta bombs on the sargeant, and then either take a flamer or plasmagun. I bring Hvy Bolters with my flamers and Plasma Cannons with my plasma guns. I don't always stick them in a Rhino, actually I havn't yet in 6th.

I generally tend to pair up weapons and don't deviate much from the set patterns. If I take a anti- troop assault weapon, then my heavy weapon will be anti-infantry also. This applies to each set of weapons.

'Jack of all trades, master of none.'

So generally I would pair up as follows:

Anti-Troop = Flamer + Heavy Bolter (can also ML using frag)

Anti-Tank = Meltagun + Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta (You can lascannon also, but I generally wouldn't as they are too expensive.)

Anti-Elite = Plasma Gun + Plasma Cannon

Obviously there are other options but these are the three I've generally come to rely on. The next step is my sergeant, who again will follow suit.

For example in an anti-infantry set-up, I fail to see the reason in taking a power fist, you won't be fighting heavily armoured or tough foes (or with better than 3+) so generally I would attach a Power Sword / Lightning Claw. This allows the sergeant to strike quickly and hard against lightly armoured foes.

For the anti-tank set up however, the Power fist is the best bet, it allows easy vehicle penetration (initiative doesn't matter) but this can also give the squad a dual role in that it can tackle heavily armoured foes if it can't reach or has removed the tank threats. Although it is worth mentioning if you need to trim points consider swapping to a melta-bomb/combi-weapon set up or even just the melta-bomb.

Finally the anti-elite set up, which is a slight variation, in 5th ed I would typically run the Power fist if I could afford it as this would allow me hurt heavily armoured foes and vehicles alike. Thankfully in 6th ed we can achieve the same effect for cheaper through the use of a Power Axe, as it provides the AP2 needed for anti-elite and can give the strength and extra penetration to tackle light vehicles. However if you have the points then feel free to keep taking the mighty fist.

Finally, as mentioned above I used to occasionally run a cheap and cheerful sergeant which could fit into any squad. Sometimes he'd just be there to carry a melta bomb to provide limited anti-tank support, failing that you can always go down the routes of combi-weapons also and match them to your set up (combi-melta for anti-tank etc.)

Thats what I found to be the best way of operating tactical squads and their sergeants.

As for rhino's over razorbacks, I can't really comment per say as I only ever really use rhino's as I feel razorbacks are too expensive and I prefer the increased capacity and the ability to use the rhino as portable cover and a fancy bunker for my large squads.

That's just my 0.02 USD though, everyone has their own set-ups and some might not like others, best thing to do is try them out.

Rysaer

 Rysaer wrote:
I generally tend to pair up weapons and don't deviate much from the set patterns. If I take a anti- troop assault weapon, then my heavy weapon will be anti-infantry also. This applies to each set of weapons.

'Jack of all trades, master of none.'

So generally I would pair up as follows:

Anti-Troop = Flamer + Heavy Bolter (can also ML using frag)

Anti-Tank = Meltagun + Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta (You can lascannon also, but I generally wouldn't as they are too expensive.)

Anti-Elite = Plasma Gun + Plasma Cannon

Obviously there are other options but these are the three I've generally come to rely on. The next step is my sergeant, who again will follow suit.

For example in an anti-infantry set-up, I fail to see the reason in taking a power fist, you won't be fighting heavily armoured or tough foes (or with better than 3+) so generally I would attach a Power Sword / Lightning Claw. This allows the sergeant to strike quickly and hard against lightly armoured foes.

For the anti-tank set up however, the Power fist is the best bet, it allows easy vehicle penetration (initiative doesn't matter) but this can also give the squad a dual role in that it can tackle heavily armoured foes if it can't reach or has removed the tank threats. Although it is worth mentioning if you need to trim points consider swapping to a melta-bomb/combi-weapon set up or even just the melta-bomb.

Finally the anti-elite set up, which is a slight variation, in 5th ed I would typically run the Power fist if I could afford it as this would allow me hurt heavily armoured foes and vehicles alike. Thankfully in 6th ed we can achieve the same effect for cheaper through the use of a Power Axe, as it provides the AP2 needed for anti-elite and can give the strength and extra penetration to tackle light vehicles. However if you have the points then feel free to keep taking the mighty fist.

Finally, as mentioned above I used to occasionally run a cheap and cheerful sergeant which could fit into any squad. Sometimes he'd just be there to carry a melta bomb to provide limited anti-tank support, failing that you can always go down the routes of combi-weapons also and match them to your set up (combi-melta for anti-tank etc.)

Thats what I found to be the best way of operating tactical squads and their sergeants.

As for rhino's over razorbacks, I can't really comment per say as I only ever really use rhino's as I feel razorbacks are too expensive and I prefer the increased capacity and the ability to use the rhino as portable cover and a fancy bunker for my large squads.

That's just my 0.02 USD though, everyone has their own set-ups and some might not like others, best thing to do is try them out.

Rysaer

Thank you! That was very helpful!

I'd like more input from others about the RB vs Rhino choice with the Tacticals. I understand having a capacity for 10 is better for the Rhino but the RB's 6 seems enough since most of the time youll want to be firing your Heavys and moving in a Rhino + Snapping seems like a waste..

Anyone else have anything on RB vs Rhino for Tacticals with combi + special + heavy weapons?

syypher wrote:


I'd like more input from others about the RB vs Rhino choice with the Tacticals. I understand having a capacity for 10 is better for the Rhino but the RB's 6 seems enough since most of the time youll want to be firing your Heavys and moving in a Rhino + Snapping seems like a waste..

Anyone else have anything on RB vs Rhino for Tacticals with combi + special + heavy weapons?

It is also a waste to have 4 bolter marines sitting around while the heavy is the only one working. One of the problems and strengths of the tactical squad is that they are OK at everything. No mater what you do, part of the squad is going to be underutilized. A full squad in a rhino maximizes the massed bolter fire, but puts less use on the heavy. It's just a bonus that gets snap fired when you pile out of the rhino. I would not pay points for a heavy in a rhino, go with one of the free options. The HB works best snap firing, MM is melta, the range is not an issue when you aggressively deploy in a rhino. MLs are flexible.

Razorbacks put the focus on the heavy weapon. So splurge and buy yourself a LC or PC. You have a spare seat in the razor, so if you have a HQ kicking around, this is a good place for them. A sarge with a few toys and a special weapon makes for the poor man's command squad. The special weapon is also a little more important, as you can't rely on massed bolter fire to get the job done.

If you just view the tac squad as a way to get special and heavy weapons on the field, the razorback lets them work better, at the cost of having the bolters be mostly useless. The rhino lets the bulk of the squad use their bolters together, with the extra weapons just there to add a little oomph when needed.

I agree with most comments above

Other thoughts

Combat squadding, its good to keep a bare bones SGT with the heavy for his LD, rolling 10 is statistically a lot harder than 9.

The other 5 would try and stay out of harms way, ideally in a razor.

I would not do this in a KP game as they easy to kill if you focus fire.

Loadout wise, tacs first job in this game is actually survival. T4 and 3+ helps a lot here. Secondary for tacs is to inflict damage, that is for your elite and HS slots to achieve.

Rather than spend loading outntacs its actually better to protect them in other ways. Keep a counter assault unit close by, castle two units together for mutual support, 40 bolter shots will deal with most outflanking enemies, and be crafty to deny nasty enemy units mobility to your tacs.

I used to be a weak user of tacs so i took 50 to a tournament to make myself get proficient with them. They are hardy little suckers and so long as you keep your wits and give them missions they reasonably capable of, they will not dissapoint you.

Remember, survival first, dealing damage a secondary consideration.

As I mentioned before I generally run with Rhinos rather than Razorbacks and I'll try and explain why I do below, but I'll try to look at it from both sides, although I'm obviously biased.

Ever since I started the game I've always run with rhinos this is usually because:

A) They have always been cheaper to run with
B) Increased Transport Capacity
C) Portable Cover + Increased Movement Speed
D) Less of a concern if one is destroyed (especially after it has deployed its cargo.)

I generally run with rhino's for these reasons, the main issue for me is transport capacity, I always run squads in 10's and I seldom Combat Squad and if I was going to do this I probably wouldn't use a vehicle to do so. The main reason I do this is because I generally that 5 marines aren't capable of doing much especially after deploying from a vehicle as they will generally struggle to survive. Whereas 10 marines actually stand a decent chance of surviving (usually I have 9 and a HQ). Now people will say this makes your heavy weapon redundant, while this is true, you now have the option to snap fire at least, but also considering we pay nothing for decent heavy weapons in squads I can't see why this is so crippling, and if you are relying on tactical squads as your anti-tank element, I'd generally say you are using them wrong anyways. (Thats just my opinion though.)

In comparison when those 5 guys climb out of a vehicle at best you can hope to rapid fire and maybe get an assault weapon shot or two off dependent on what you've taken obviously. Now unless you are hitting a very vulnerable spot at best these guys may hope to pen/glance a vehicle or score 2-4 wounds typically which isn't terrible, but when your opponents turns comes he will generally blow this small unit to smithereens in seconds as even 1-2 losses can cripple this squad. Being reduced to 2-3 marines or worse, that close to the enemy effectively makes them redundant and makes any power weapons etc you've put in the squad almost not worth taking, as in generally if these 2-3 marines charge they will not do a lot of damage, unless you are fighting very weak, low numbered troops or lightly armoured troops you will generally be swamped or slaughtered instantly.

The exception to that is to obviously add in a HQ or character for your 6th man in the Razorback to make the squad more survivable, in which case Razorbacks can be perfectly fine if suited to survival. A good example of this are Death Company, Death Company have feel no pain making them more survivable and are generally much more capable of dealing damage than standard tacticals meaning that taking a smaller squad is not so much of an issue.

To make a decently survivable squad in a razorback, I'd be looking to take 5 Tacticals with a Librarian to protect them with the likes of Null Zone or other Buffs, also if you can afford an epistolary you then have another decent weapon in the squad in the form of offensive psychic powers and/or his force weapon.

However I can see the benefits of running with Razorbacks, it's a good way to introduce more mobile heavy weapons into your army and allows you to combat squads easily, leaving your heavy weapons behind to act as anti-tank elements and to objective sit whilst small squads can continue to push forwards with assault/power weapons. The only problem I feel is the cost, to do this for each squad can become expensive, I know several people who run this kind of list and I've always found their main problem is that they sink their points into running these set-ups only to find that the razorbacks and squads inside generally don't hold up that well or don't achieve their points worth.

The final issue with Razorbacks I find is that to make it worthwhile to use you can only creep the 6" with it, as this will allow you to fire at full BS, while I understand that you can only move 6" and deploy now with either rhinos/razorbacks, at least with the rhino if you do decide to rush and use your full 12" movement you aren't losing anything. This I feel gives rhino's a bit more of an edge in terms of speed but again this could be viewed as situational.

Don't get me wrong this kind of list can and will work if handled correctly, but I personally don't think it is worth it, but again that's just my opinion.

Rysaer.

Other consideration is whether to take any transports

I find if i have other armour then ok to mech up as the av 12 and 13 can take some fire so with smoke you might have your buckets till turn 3

Without heavy armour your av11 gets hammered leaving you down kill points, clustered squads and your strategy of relying on that mobility in tatters.

So my rule now is go hard on armour or go on foot.

Nothing wrong with 5 marines making a land raider scoring by the way.

The Marines would have to jump out of the LR in order to capture the objective, which doesn't solve the issue of the survivability of 5 Marines.

I wouldn't pay points for a heavy weapon on a tac squad, with small exceptions.
As most people have said, the heavy doesn't mesh well with the tac squad like special weapons do. Playing CSM/SW is a whole different world since your "tac" squads come with 2xspecial. The heavy weapon is a boon though because its free. Free HB/ML/MM is sweet as. I go with the ML when I do play C:SM (Not very often), as its free, meshes with the bolters, and can go for the ol' hail mary shot with a krak missile.

The one I would pay points for is a plasma cannon. Plasmagun+cannon+objective=tac squad knows what its doin' all game. The HPG is great vs TEQ's and MEQ's, what with people bunching up more due to the new shooting/cover/removing models rules. Its cheap enough too.

I would never get a lascannon on tac marines. Too expensive for single shots whilst wasting 4-9 other marines. There are other better platforms for a lascannon.

Lascannon is gold on tacs.

They sitting on an objective all game out of bolter range, the lascannon allows them to participate. 10 points for S9 ap2 vs S8 ap3 is a fair trade, not always but regularly enough, and you only need one glance to become a pen, or one incinerated terminator, for its justification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AresX8 wrote:
The Marines would have to jump out of the LR in order to capture the objective, which doesn't solve the issue of the survivability of 5 Marines.

Is this part of 6th? Missed that.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Lascannon is gold on tacs.

They sitting on an objective all game out of bolter range, the lascannon allows them to participate. 10 points for S9 ap2 vs S8 ap3 is a fair trade, not always but regularly enough, and you only need one glance to become a pen, or one incinerated terminator, for its justification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AresX8 wrote:
The Marines would have to jump out of the LR in order to capture the objective, which doesn't solve the issue of the survivability of 5 Marines.

Is this part of 6th? Missed that.

Yes, you need to get out of transports to claim these days.

On the lascannon: If you are not using your bolters, you are paying ~200 points for a single lascannon shot a turn. For the most part, things that need lascannons are just going to ignore the bolters. So you are wasting a lot of utility. I'd rather have a 5 man sniper scout squad and an auto/las pred for similar points. If you are going for one of the paid upgrades for a tac squad, go PC. It keeps the synergy with the rest of the squad.