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Having seen a few blogs doing old school Rogue Trader & 40k gaming as well as painting and modelling I wondered if anyone had produced a 40k retroclone, similar to the D&D retroclones like Labyrinth Lord etc.

As I understand it the basic rules for D&D were made open, allowing the clones to be produced and sold legally. With GW being what it is I'm sure they would quickly shut down a commercial product, but maybe a free fan based product, similar to the Inquisimunda rules, would be allowed. Having seen the original rulebook it seems that there would be a huge benefit to tidying up the ruleset and bringing all the different rules that were published in WD and in supplements together, it's bad enough having to flick backwards and forwards when all the rules are in one book. I've heard that their are adaptations of more recent armies like Dark Eldar and Necrons for 2nd Ed but I've never seen the rules, has anyone done this for RT?

So can anyone point me towards any resources? Do you think there would be much interest in a retroclone of RT or 2nd Ed?

As I understand it the basic rules for D&D were made open, allowing the clones to be produced and sold legally. With GW being what it is I'm sure they would quickly shut down a commercial product,

I'll say this again to remind people that in the US you can NOT copyright game mechanics.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
Posting information from the site

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.

If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, the Copyright Office recommends that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.

The deposit requirements for copyright registration will vary, depending on whether the work has been published at the time of registration. If the game is published, the proper deposit is one complete copy of the work. If, however, the game is published in a box larger than 12" x 24" x 6" (or a total of 1,728 cubic inches) then identifying material must be submitted in lieu of the entire game. (See “identifying material” below.) If the game is published and contains fewer than three three-dimensional elements, then identifying material for those parts must be submitted in lieu of those parts. If the game is unpublished, either one copy of the game or identifying material should be deposited.

Identifying material deposited to represent the game or its three-dimensional parts usually consists of photographs, photostats, slides, drawings, or other two-dimensional representations of the work. The identifying material should include as many pieces as necessary to show the entire copyrightable content of the work, including the copyright notice if it appears on the work. All pieces of identifying material other than transparencies must be no less than 3" x 3" in size, and not more than 9" x 12", but preferably 8" x 10". At least one piece of identifying material must, on its front, back, or mount, indicate the title of the work and an exact measurement of one or more dimensions of the work.

FL-108, Reviewed December 2011



Another point to make
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenzer_%26_Company

Posting information from that site as well.

Unlicensed supplements and trademark issues

In 1994, Kenzer & Company released Kingdoms of Kalamar, a fantasy campaign setting compatible with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. This source book was a completely unlicensed product, and although TSR (the then-owner of the Dungeons & Dragons trademark) had a precedent of threatening legal action against similar supplements, Kenzer & Company was never threatened.[2]

With the launch of Dungeons & Dragons’s 3rd Edition, Wizards of the Coast made the d20 System available under the Open Game License (OGL) and d20 Trademark License. Under these licenses, authors are free to use the d20 System when writing games and game supplements.[3] Shortly after Wizards of the Coast announced the 3rd Edition of Dungeons & Dragons, they announced jointly with Kenzer & Company that Kenzer had acquired a license to produce official Dungeons & Dragons material, using the Kalamar setting exclusively.

With the release of the fourth edition, Wizards of the Coast has introduced its Game System License, which represents a significant restriction compared with the very open policies embodied by the OGL. In response, Kenzer & Company launched an updated version of Kingdoms of Kalamar compatible with the 4th Edition version of Dungeons & Dragons which does not conform to the new Game System License for approved use, instead releasing the campaign setting as an unlicensed supplement, similar to the original publication. The Dungeons & Dragons trademark is used in accordance with US law under a concept called Nominative use - the book merely says that it is for use with the new version. David Kenzer is named as an expert in copyright law.[4]


Not sure about the UK as I do not do business over there so I hope this helps you a bit to get an idea that it really depends on what country you are living in and know your laws within.

 smiler wrote:
Having seen a few blogs doing old school Rogue Trader & 40k gaming as well as painting and modelling I wondered if anyone had produced a 40k retroclone, similar to the D&D retroclones like Labyrinth Lord etc.

As I understand it the basic rules for D&D were made open, allowing the clones to be produced and sold legally. With GW being what it is I'm sure they would quickly shut down a commercial product, but maybe a free fan based product, similar to the Inquisimunda rules, would be allowed. Having seen the original rulebook it seems that there would be a huge benefit to tidying up the ruleset and bringing all the different rules that were published in WD and in supplements together, it's bad enough having to flick backwards and forwards when all the rules are in one book. I've heard that their are adaptations of more recent armies like Dark Eldar and Necrons for 2nd Ed but I've never seen the rules, has anyone done this for RT?

So can anyone point me towards any resources? Do you think there would be much interest in a retroclone of RT or 2nd Ed?

I would be more than interested in helping out in this endeavour! I have access to all of the Rogue Trader era books and would love to produce a 'retroclone'.

It could be like the 2nd edition battle bible, except a Rogue Trader battle bible. I don't know how much interest it would generate, however I would love to work on this regardless.

Hi Vlad'.
My memory is a bit sketchy.
Was 'Waaagh the Orks!' and 'Ere we go!' RT supliments for Orks , or 2nd ed?

They were Rogue Trader supplements.

Adam LongWalker wrote: SNIP

Thanks for the info. I would assume the copyright is held in the UK, though I have no understanding of copyright law.

The main issue is that without all the appropriate background etc the rules themselves aren't that important to me, I think for simplicity and ease of use, changing weapon/faction names and backgrounds would be more work than it was worth.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
I would be more than interested in helping out in this endeavour! I have access to all of the Rogue Trader era books and would love to produce a 'retroclone'.
It could be like the 2nd edition battle bible, except a Rogue Trader battle bible. I don't know how much interest it would generate, however I would love to work on this regardless.

Just had a quick look for the Battle Bible, I've never heard of it before. the copy on Scribd just came up blank, is there anywhere I could look at it for free? I'm guessing it's a compilation of rules, that's exactly what I'd like for RT, something I can print and read. If the 2nd ed Battle Bible has been left alone by GW I guess a RT one would be too.

Just to clarify I'm not offering to produce one though I appreciate the enthusiasm! I've never played RT before, having started with 2nd ed, and really wanted a simpler way to learn the rules without having to gather 10 different books together and write new rules for modern armies and units. The skirmish nature of RT appeals to me and would allow me to indulge in small, fun P&M projects for 40k that would actually get used in games, I happy to do some writing to get it where I want but I don't want to have to start from scratch. Maybe once I am familiar with the ruleset compiling it would be an option.

 smiler wrote:
[
The main issue is that without all the appropriate background etc the rules themselves aren't that important to me, I think for simplicity and ease of use, changing weapon/faction names and backgrounds would be more work than it was worth.

I think this is the main point for alot of folks. No edition of 40k is unplayable, but no edition has ever thrived primarily because of the amazing game mechanics. It's solid game mechanics and a weird and wonderful universe that folks are attracted to.

RT without the fluff is not something that I think alot of folks would be interested in.

On the positive side, RT and most of it's supplements are not always cheap, but can usually be had for less than the price of current editions of 40k books(realms of chaos and certain ork books being the exception) . There's nothing stopping folks from buying the RT rulebook and playing it.

That said, I'm not sure how much GW could/would do against a free fan produced product even within a GW setting.

For folks looking for skirmish in the 40k world, "In The Emperor's Name", contains a ton of GW IP, and retiune lists for nearly every 40k and NEcromunda (even squats, Slaan and genestealer cults) faction though the rules are completely different. Much faster playing, and, IMHO more fun. It's been out for a couple years and is already in a second edition (Third in development) and I don't think GW has moved against them.
http://iten-game.org/

Eilif wrote:
For folks looking for skirmish in the 40k world, "In The Emperor's Name", contains a ton of GW IP, and retiune lists for nearly every 40k and NEcromunda (even squats, Slaan and genestealer cults) faction though the rules are completely different. Much faster playing, and, IMHO more fun. It's been out for a couple years and is already in a second edition (Third in development) and I don't think GW has moved against them.
http://iten-game.org/

GW are aware of it. The only complaint GW Legal had was an earlier version had some copyrighted artwork in it. Beyond that, they thought it was great.

 Hercule Pyro wrote:

Eilif wrote:
For folks looking for skirmish in the 40k world, "In The Emperor's Name", contains a ton of GW IP, and retiune lists for nearly every 40k and NEcromunda (even squats, Slaan and genestealer cults) faction though the rules are completely different. Much faster playing, and, IMHO more fun. It's been out for a couple years and is already in a second edition (Third in development) and I don't think GW has moved against them.
http://iten-game.org/

GW are aware of it. The only complaint GW Legal had was an earlier version had some copyrighted artwork in it. Beyond that, they thought it was great.

That's good to hear.

It really is a nice ruleset. It got so many fans that Osprey is partnering to publish a Steampunk version next year called "In Her Magesty's Name". I have no present desire to play steampunk, but I'll definitely be picking it up as a possible ruleset for Post Apocalyptic gaming.

 smiler wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
I would be more than interested in helping out in this endeavour! I have access to all of the Rogue Trader era books and would love to produce a 'retroclone'.
It could be like the 2nd edition battle bible, except a Rogue Trader battle bible. I don't know how much interest it would generate, however I would love to work on this regardless.

Just had a quick look for the Battle Bible, I've never heard of it before. the copy on Scribd just came up blank, is there anywhere I could look at it for free? I'm guessing it's a compilation of rules, that's exactly what I'd like for RT, something I can print and read. If the 2nd ed Battle Bible has been left alone by GW I guess a RT one would be too.

Just to clarify I'm not offering to produce one though I appreciate the enthusiasm! I've never played RT before, having started with 2nd ed, and really wanted a simpler way to learn the rules without having to gather 10 different books together and write new rules for modern armies and units. The skirmish nature of RT appeals to me and would allow me to indulge in small, fun P&M projects for 40k that would actually get used in games, I happy to do some writing to get it where I want but I don't want to have to start from scratch. Maybe once I am familiar with the ruleset compiling it would be an option.

Hey there, I actually have the battle bible on my scribd account here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/45857409/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Bible-1-51
The only 'downside' is that you don't get any fluff, just rules.

It's gonna be a really huge task of compiling all of the rules, and let me explain why:

First of all, major parts of the rules were heavily redone each book. Vehicles were redone several times. The tail end of Rogue Trader basically looked like an early test for 2nd edition. So then we'd have to decide where we want to stop.

The vehicle battle manual? I'm not a fan because it requires having X and Y coordinates for all of the vehicles which is way too difficult.

If we did this, I would recommend using the base Rogue Trader rules and then adding on supplements that work, nothing more.

For this retroclone, I'm thinking that we include the following books as a base:

Rogue Trader
Rogue Trader Compendium
Rogue Trader Compilation
Book of the Astronomican (for updated weaponry)

Now here's where we get to the complicated stuff which we should only include later
Slaves to Darkness
Lost and the Damned
'Ere We Go
Freebooters

The reason I am calling these complicated is because they are. Slaves to Darkness alone has 4 armylists: World Eaters, Black Legion, Emperor's Children, and Daemonhunters. For those 4 army lists there are at least 5 D100 tables and then of course the penultimate D1000 Mutation and Chaos Weapon lists! This isn't even including the rules for rewards.

Orks are rather the same way.

This would be a cool idea, but a lot of work. Didn't someone do this already for Necromunda? Kind of like a community upgraded ruleset. Very cool idea.

I really like how with the RT ruleset everything is so much less specific, and requires more imagination. It's more like a RPG/miniatures hybrid.

IIRC, the version of Necro on the GW website had fan input and may different from the print version. I think there may be a further fan version that isn't on the GW website.

 Cave_Dweller wrote:
This would be a cool idea, but a lot of work. Didn't someone do this already for Necromunda? Kind of like a community upgraded ruleset. Very cool idea.

I really like how with the RT ruleset everything is so much less specific, and requires more imagination. It's more like a RPG/miniatures hybrid.

Yeah for sure. I feel that cleaning up parts of it would make it lose its RPG feel which I really don't want to lose. The problem is that then you need a GM for every single game which isn't good either!

Eilif wrote:

 smiler wrote:
[
The main issue is that without all the appropriate background etc the rules themselves aren't that important to me, I think for simplicity and ease of use, changing weapon/faction names and backgrounds would be more work than it was worth.

I think this is the main point for alot of folks. No edition of 40k is unplayable, but no edition has ever thrived primarily because of the amazing game mechanics. It's solid game mechanics and a weird and wonderful universe that folks are attracted to.

RT without the fluff is not something that I think alot of folks would be interested in.

On the positive side, RT and most of it's supplements are not always cheap, but can usually be had for less than the price of current editions of 40k books(realms of chaos and certain ork books being the exception) . There's nothing stopping folks from buying the RT rulebook and playing it.

For folks looking for skirmish in the 40k world, "In The Emperor's Name", contains a ton of GW IP, and retiune lists for nearly every 40k and NEcromunda (even squats, Slaan and genestealer cults) faction though the rules are completely different. Much faster playing, and, IMHO more fun. It's been out for a couple years and is already in a second edition (Third in development) and I don't think GW has moved against them.
http://iten-game.org/

Thanks for the link, it looks like an interesting game and I'll give it a good read later.

Though the rulebook is cheaper than the current ed, getting it with supplements like Slaves to Darkness would run into hundreds of pounds very quickly, never mind the hassle of trying to get hold of decent copies that aren't falling to pieces and covered in scribbles. What I'd like is something that takes the rules and puts them in to an easy to read, printable format.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Hey there, I actually have the battle bible on my scribd account here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/45857409/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Bible-1-51
The only 'downside' is that you don't get any fluff, just rules.

It's gonna be a really huge task of compiling all of the rules, and let me explain why:

First of all, major parts of the rules were heavily redone each book. Vehicles were redone several times. The tail end of Rogue Trader basically looked like an early test for 2nd edition. So then we'd have to decide where we want to stop.

The vehicle battle manual? I'm not a fan because it requires having X and Y coordinates for all of the vehicles which is way too difficult.

If we did this, I would recommend using the base Rogue Trader rules and then adding on supplements that work, nothing more.

For this retroclone, I'm thinking that we include the following books as a base:

Rogue Trader
Rogue Trader Compendium
Rogue Trader Compilation
Book of the Astronomican (for updated weaponry)

Now here's where we get to the complicated stuff which we should only include later
Slaves to Darkness
Lost and the Damned
'Ere We Go
Freebooters

The reason I am calling these complicated is because they are. Slaves to Darkness alone has 4 armylists: World Eaters, Black Legion, Emperor's Children, and Daemonhunters. For those 4 army lists there are at least 5 D100 tables and then of course the penultimate D1000 Mutation and Chaos Weapon lists! This isn't even including the rules for rewards.

Orks are rather the same way.

Does anyone have any suggestions of somewhere where I might be able to get more info on RT/2nd ed stuff? Are there any good forums dedicated to the retro stuff?