Necron Lords, WBB and the 1" zone.

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**Lordhat**

In another thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&forumid=17&view=topic&postid=47494 Spmusubi asked the following question:

"Rule question for you all. The Lord was in combat with the Broadside team and in BTB with the Ethereal. The Kroot kill him by inflicting three wounds. When he stands back up (he did), where does he appear? Back in close combat w/ the Ethereal or is in CC with the Broadsides enough? Just for more entertainment, after I won the CC, I consolidated a Kroot pack in a base to base circle around the Ethereal. After a bit of discussion with Aaron, we decided to put the Lord back in CC touching the Kroot unit, since that was closest to where he went down."

To which I replied:

"Unfortunately, I'd have to say that the Lord is destroyed when he stands back up.... Due to being within 1" of an enemy unit he neither charged, nor was charged by. This is regrettably one of the obvious rules situtaions that GW simply refuses to deal with, and there is no RAW covering a Necron Lord who is forced to stand up in BTB. When a Necron dies and is awaiting WBB for all intents and purposes gamewise he is NOT on the battlefield, the model is just there as a reminder, and to show the relative position for WBB eligibility. However this also means you can "camp" his corpse (Using a term from Evercrack), which after a few games against the 'Crons is a VERY obvious tactic, especially when the Lord dies in the opponent's assault phase; Just consolidate around the dead Lord and watch him disappear forever!"

Spmusubi then stated the following:

"Lordhat, isn't that a little goofy? What if his 'corpse' wasn't blocked by a model? Wouldn't he still die since obviously the model(s) he was fighting in CC are within 1" of where he went down? How about for Warriors (example) that are knocked down in CC, pass WBB and reappear attached to their unit that's still fighting in CC? Don't they die too then since they can't place 1" away (unless it's a really big warrior pack)? *shrug* maybe a YMTC topic."

My response to this was:

"In the case of the warriors they're placed in coherency with a unit ALREADY in CC. A necron model that gets up is immediately starts "doing" whatever it is the unit is "doing" at the time: Falling back, waiting to move, or fighting in a melee. The problem with the Lord, is that when he dies, he is no longer joined to any unit he may have been, and has no "parent" unit to join. As I said earlier, for all intents and purposes he no longer exists, until he makes the WBB. When he gets up he may move, shoot, charge, regardless of what he, or any unit was attached to was doing before his death. So when your opponent decides to consolidate on "top" of his corpse, and he subsequently passes his WBB, it creates the situation where a model has been forced to enter the 1" "safety zone". There are no rules saying to "shunt him" a la Drop pods; Precedence shows that when this happens without an exception to allow it, such models are destroyed. As I also said, a simple FAQ entry would clear this up."

Now let the debate start..... this is my interperetaion of the RAW, and as you may or may not know I AM a Necron player, these are my conclusions after have played many, many 3rd and 4th ed. games with them. I wanna know what the big guns think.... Ed, Yak? (Capt. Anderton, unless you have an actual rules quote in your post, please leave it out.)

**mauleed**

My necron codex is at home, so I'll have to take a look.

But there's nothing that says you can't be within one inch. You just can't move within an inch. Further, some other rules (like disembarkation, deepstrike) describe ways this can kill you, but WBB is not one of them.

And this is all alot simple if people would compose proper arguments. It's much more convenient and organized to point out which premises are flawed than to look at a whole paragraph of gobbly [see forum posting rules] and try to figure out the important parts.

**Lordhat**

Heh I don't compose proper arguments well.... I usually don't know what I'm trying to say before I actually type it, edit it for clarity, the reread it, the type for more clarity, cut the excess, and post.

**DaIronGob**

Not too mention the 1" zone of auto death you are referring to is in regards to placing a model onto the battlefield whether it is from disembarkation or deepstrike or summoning etc...

In this situation the Lord is already on the field and therefore is able to stand back up in that same position.

**Lordhat**

Necron codex pg13: "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair and son - they are debris only." The Lord is NOT on the field after being damaged otherwise the enemy units wouldn't be able to move to within one inch of said posotion in the first place.

**mauleed**

Not relevant anyway. The argument that he would be destroyed is based on a premise that you can't be within 1" of an enemy or you are destroyed. And that premise is false.

**spmusubi**

So what would happen to the Lord then? I'm the player from the battle report example, and I wasn't quite sure exactly where that Necron Lord should have been placed.

"Normally", I believe that the Lord would have reappeared in CC w/ the Ethereal since that was where he was killed, but as I had a Kroot pack consolidating into a circle around the Ethereal, where should he go?

**Oaka**

Well, as Mauleed said, there is no rule preventing you from being within 1" of an enemy model, only moving within 1" of one. So the Necron lord will stand up where he is, less than 1" from an enemy model but not in base-to-base. If that lord doesn't have a veil of darkness, then he cannot move in the movement phase, but he can certainly shoot and assault.

This situation gets interesting when you begin to park vehicles over Necrons that need to take WBB rolls. It seems like in your example his 'debris' was covered by an ethereal and a bunch of Kroot. That's a D6 situation, I'm afraid. The lord has just as much a right to be there as the other models do.

- Oaka

**TheGreatAvatar**

The rules for WBB permit a model to be placed into unit coherence when it makes its WBB roll. If the Lord goes down when attached to a unit, he should then rejoin his unit maintaining unit coherence.

The rule of 1" applies during the Movement phase (page 15 of the BGB) and says nothing of a model being destroyed if by some chance the model does. By defintion, the two enemy models cannot be closer than 1" unless in HTH.

The Codex: Necron does not specify where the Lord gets up if he is by himself. He's not in HTH if he was damaged in CC since that combat was resolved per page 36. I'd just place the Lord model outside 1" of the assaulting model such it is not engaged with any enemy model.

The Lord can move during the movement phase when he stands up. Nothing in either the BGB or Codex: Necron prevents this.

**Lordhat**

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 03/15/2006 10:36 PM
The rules for WBB permit a model to be placed into unit coherence when it makes its WBB roll. If the Lord goes down when attached to a unit, he should then rejoin his unit maintaining unit coherence.

Those particular rules govern normal Necron models as they have to join a like unit. Those rules do not govern the Lord because he doesn't have to join a unit to WBB, nor can he (until the subsequent movement phase). Remember that ANY downed Necron is debris only, per the wbb rules; they are NOT part of any unit nor do they count for anything you have to check for for said unit. The resurrected Lord is all on his own at the time of his resurrection.

**TheGreatAvatar**

Correct. The Lord, as with all Necron capable models, is debris while he is damaged. Resurrecting models join the nearest unit during the WBB "phase" before the Movement phase. Resurrecting does not constitute movement.

Yes, the Lord is different. Unfortunetely, the rules are incomplete about how to deal with the damaged Lord. This is what this thread is attempting to figure out.

**DaIronGob**

Yes, the Lord is different. Unfortunetely, the rules are incomplete about how to deal with the damaged Lord.

And what is incomplete about it? He rolls, and gets back up where he fell? What else would be needed?

**TheGreatAvatar**

Uh, have you read the thread? There are particular issues related to WHERE he gets back up: when he is damaged in CC? what if there is an other model near or on top of him? what if there IS another Lord near by? The rules do not directly address such issues.

**DaIronGob**

He get's back up where he fell.

**dreddnott**

But...but....don't you SEE????

The prior existence of the proximal cause negates the foo-faddle of the ding-doggy! Plain and simple!

**Strangelooper**

I'm surprised that no one has found a dictionary definition of "stands up" that include the word "movement" and argued from there...

**TheGreatAvatar**

Posted By DaIronGob on 03/17/2006 1:28 PM
He get's back up where he fell.

*smack head* Well, how about that! And all this time we've just be worried about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.....

Your simple dimissal response was, well, simple. There ARE some major issues with the Necron Lord and WBB such as the ones posted above. If the Lord is damaged in CC and gets back up, does he get back up in CC? Since Necron capable models that get back up join the nearest unit, does the damaged Lord get back up in unit coherence with another Lord in range?

These are just some of the "simple" issues. The solution is more that "He get's back up where he fell."

**Odd the Quiet**

I don't play with or against Necrons, take this as an outsider interpretation.

When you say "Necron capable models that get back up join the nearest unit", I would consider the Lord to be the nearest unit to himself.
Assuming he's an IC and it's one per HQ choice.

You also said "If the Lord goes down when attached to a unit, he should then rejoin his unit maintaining unit coherence."

"Should", is that a rule or your interpretation?

**chardison1980**

he will stand back up in base to base with who ever he is within one inch of witch can be more than one model

**Lordhat**

Posted By chardison1980 on 03/19/2006 7:43 PM
he will stand back up in base to base with who ever he is within one inch of witch can be more than one model

A statement like this really needs a page or FAQ reference, otherwise it is just your opinion on how the rule should work, which, in YMTC, is not a valid argument.

**DaIronGob**

Your simple dimissal response was, well, simple.

Sometimes the best answer is the easiest one obtained. Making too much out of a simple rule is assinine and does nothing but cause threads like this.

The IC has no other 'unit' it needs to get into coherency with therefore would stand up where it fell. Simple, effective and it avoids all this worthless BS you are grasping at. How's that for 'dismissive'?

The solution is more that "He get's back up where he fell."

Unfortunately it's not. The IC is it's own unit and therefore stands back up where he fell. There is no rule that would state otherwise meaning that is the only logical solution. The rules are permissive, please remember that.

**TheGreatAvatar**

Not to make a mountain out of a mole hill....

Okay, so you've address the simple issue of the damaged Lord near another Lord: A Lord is a unit unto itself thus it is the closest unit when it gets back up. Fair enough.

Now, what if the Lord is damaged in CC, does it come back in CC? What if an enemy model is on top of the damaged Lord when the Lord comes back?

**DaIronGob**

Now, what if the Lord is damaged in CC, does it come back in CC? What if an enemy model is on top of the damaged Lord when the Lord comes back?

He would get back up in close combat on both cases. There is nothing to suggest that he cannot stand back up in the same or a different close combat if the opponent is wanting to walk all over him.

**flyins**

The Necron Codex also states that if the model making the WBB roll is added to a unit that is already in combat then it joins in that combat and maintains coherency. Of course the Lord is it's own unit but I think this could carry the rule through to mean it just is back in combat.

**DaIronGob**

Yep, so being that the Lord is an IC and as such is it's own unit, it stands back up where it fell. If there is an enemy model standing on top of it then it gets back up in combat but does not count as charging.

**flyins**

Correct I forgot to add that part about not charging.

**TheGreatAvatar**

Posted By DaIronGob on 03/20/2006 1:25 PM
Yep, so being that the Lord is an IC and as such is it's own unit, it stands back up where it fell. If there is an enemy model standing on top of it then it gets back up in combat but does not count as charging.

Really? I'm not sure the rules support this. The rules state a Necron model that stands up is placed in unit coherence with the nearest model. Further, the rules merely state the Lord stands up, no indication as to where.

Now, when a Lord is damaged in HtH, the model is no longer locked in combat. The rules state a model may not be placed within 1" of an enemy model unless the models are engaged in CC. WBB happens before the Assault phase. Given the two rules, the repaired Lord is placed where again? If an enemy model is near (or on top of) the Lord, the Lord gets back up 1" from the enemy model. The Lord is not placed back into combat.

**blue loki**

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 03/20/2006 3:06 PM
The rules state a model may not be placed within 1"

Where?

The rules state that a model may not MOVE within 1" of an enemy model during the movement phase. That is all. You are extrapolating that restriction beyond the written rule.

Now is standing up after WBB considered to be movement?

**TheGreatAvatar**

There are only three phases per turn, Movement, Shooting, and Assaulting in that order. Further, the rules state "A model cannot be places so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement phase - this is only possible in the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model (ignore wrecked vehicle) during the Movement pahse." (page 15 of the BGB)

I'm not saying WBB is considered movement but it does occur during the Movement phase and thus falls under the above rule.

**Bookwrack**

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 03/20/2006 8:08 PM
There are only three phases per turn, Movement, Shooting, and Assaulting in that order. Further, the rules state "A model cannot be places so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement phase - this is only possible in the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model (ignore wrecked vehicle) during the Movement pahse." (page 15 of the BGB)

I'm not saying WBB is considered movement but it does occur during the Movement phase and thus falls under the above rule.

Actually, it doesn't. It takes place 'at the start of the turn.' Also, since a Necron making a WBB is allowed to be placed into close combat if that is the closest unit, there is precedent for WBB allowing a model to drop into the middle of melee.