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Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






I played a lot of 40k from 3ed through to the start of 5ed, before losing interest and switching to WHFB (as a player).

However I still continued to organise 40k events including our country's GT and Masters event.

I'm running the Masters here again this year and I am currently checking the lists.

This morning while drinking my coffee and running the lists through AB, I suddenly had a jolt....

What has happened to the game I use to play?

In 3ed/4ed you used to have a force that looked like an army (or at least as army as you get).

Using MEQ at 1500 points, typically you worked on at least 45-50 models in a mechanised army and pushing 60 for MEQ footsloggers. At 1750 these pushed up by 10 as you took more toys.

Now I am getting less that comprise:

Special Character
10 man MEQ
5 Man MEQ
2 Vehicles
3 Flyers

This isn't an army, it's a collection of models. And it's not alone. Grey knight armies of 14-15 models, Tyranids of 24 models etc

What has happened to the game for it to move so far from where it was. I liked having a credible force of 50-60 models, something that looked like what a Chapter/Legion would put in the field.

I look at it now and it seems as though 40k has jumped the shark and we are now left with very much a toy based skirmish game rather than the force based game I remember.

What am I missing?

plc

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Camas, WA

 PLC wrote:

What am I missing?

plc

You are looking at a couple very specific outliers and thinking those are 40k. Yes, GK and, to an extent, nidzilla can field VERY small armies at 1500 points. Most armies still are the 'bunch of infantry and some vehicles'. In fact, 6th edition has made things much more mixed than previously. In 5th, it was 'Bunch of vehicles and some infantry' for the most part, so you are getting more models on the board nowadays.

As always, try not to let what you see on the internet speak for the game as a whole.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Still rocking a (modified) Silver Tide list. Not using any flyers - the concept of flyers feels very tacked on for Necrons. Necrons should be an army of robots, not an army of flying French bakery.

   
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6th is an edition that allows large grouops of infantry to function well.

5th edition was what killed footsloggers and made Mech Spam the name of the game.


And 1500 points is what I would consider a low end 40k game, relativly small.

Its not really a clash of armies until you hit 2k and above.

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Burtucky, Michigan

I play Orks. In 5th, I played a Horde army that was lead by rokkit buggies rocking some 4+ cover saves. Now in 6th, Im spamming AV10, meaning trukks and buggies like a mofo. So yea, even in small games, Ive got plenty of bodies on the table. But I do agree with your annoyance on that part. 2k points of army should be fairly large, when a GK player shows up with 20 dudes at 2k, I could feel my blood pressure rise
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






 pretre wrote:


As always, try not to let what you see on the internet speak for the game as a whole.


This isn't based on internet....this is based on the top end tournaments in my country - NZ's largest/most prestigous event and the Masters (Invitational forTop Ranked Players).

So it's not reading list threads on forums, rather what the best players in this part of the world (including Australia) are using.

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Rough Rider with Boomstick




United States

Thats ONE reason why my IG force has only a single squad of Vets.

My 1500 point force has 6 IG Squads not counting 2 HWS, CCS, 2 PCS, 1 Vet Squad, 1 Kasrkin.

My 2k adds another platoon to the mix with 1 PCS, 3 IG, 1 HWS


I feel like these should be armies (or in my case, my 2K is litteraly deploying a Companies worth of men)

2000pts. Cadians
500pts Imperial Fist


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Made in us
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Camas, WA

 PLC wrote:
 pretre wrote:


As always, try not to let what you see on the internet speak for the game as a whole.


This isn't based on internet....this is based on the top end tournaments in my country - NZ's largest/most prestigous event and the Masters (Invitational forTop Ranked Players).

So it's not reading list threads on forums, rather what the best players in this part of the world (including Australia) are using.

Doesn't Australia/NZ play some sort of weird comp'd monstrosity? (Not trying to be dismissive, but this is what I've heard in the past.) I think that is more a problem for the community than a problem with the game. You might also want to put in the OP that you are specifically asking 'What has happened to 40k in Australia/NZ?'

In the US, things are a lot more varied.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Yup, two main things.

1.) The rise of the tournament scene. 5th ed introduced things like 'ard boys tournaments, while other tournaments greatly expanded during this time.

Tournaments do things differently than regular games of 40k, and so tournament meta began to have a trickle-down effect on the rest of the 40k world. For example, I'd like to see YOU run a 250 model horde army and finish a game in two hours.

2.) 6th edition killed assault armies, and it killed horde armies as they used to be run. As such, you're going to take a already low-model-count tournament-style army that focused on shooting (thanks to usually criminally sparse terrain at tournaments), and made that kind of list better, while making most other kinds of lists worse.

There are some people, myself included, who have long refused to bend to these trends, but it takes a certain kind of person to put in the effort to figure out how to make more interesting armies work well. Perhaps as 6th ed goes on, more people will figure more stuff out, but until then, you're going to see tiny MSU armies that spam the hell out of the new stuff under the delusion that it's the only way to win, when, in fact, it is merely the most straightforward way to do so.


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Camas, WA

Except that successful tournament armies haven't been MSU spammy armies.

Tony took Nova with a SW/IG list that had a huge guard blob in it and foot squads, iirc. Foot dark eldar weren't far behind him with mech sisters of battle (who can't even do MSU) and daemons on the top. And that's just one big event.

In the US, a HUGE variety of armies are currently doing well. MVB just wrote an Article about this, amusingly enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/12 20:52:18


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Fayetteville NC

I just finished the 11th Co GT this weekend. 4 out of 6 games were against large model count armies: IG (@ 130 models), 2 x Tyranids (with Guant spawing nearing 180-200 range for each army and Orks at @ 150 models).

It was very taxing to play against (I used Eldar/Dark Eldar). Assault is not dead, but is very time consuming to handle. In my game against IG, I literally killed @ 100 models in assault ( 2 x IG Blob units).

These games were at 2000 points and from what I saw, the rise of horde infantry was very predominant. The top table (64 player tourney) was Orks vs Tyranids, something I don't think anyone would see at at larger 5th edition tourney.

Whoah....I have played 40K for over 30 years.  
   
Made in no
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets









This is 2000 points. I'd call that an army.

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Camas, WA

 SgtSixkilla wrote:

This is 2000 points. I'd call that an army.

More than one HWT... MSU Spam.

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Made in no
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets







Hehe. Try building a 2k point list of IG without taking more than 1 of anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/12 21:33:04


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Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Seems like a case of confirmation bias to me. You are merely letting those lists you've seen that agree with your negative attitude towards the hobby form your opinion.
Maybe you should go to different places to play or failing that, try reading the army lists section.


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Camas, WA

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Hehe. Try building a 2k point list of IG without taking more than 1 of anything.


APOLOGIST!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Griddlelol wrote:
Maybe you should go to different places to play or failing that, try reading the army lists section.

Not that I'm on his side, but you want him to move out of New Zealand? lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/12 21:35:45


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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets







 pretre wrote:
 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Hehe. Try building a 2k point list of IG without taking more than 1 of anything.


APOLOGIST!


Dang. Is it that obvious? Surely the Inquisition will come get me at some really unexpected time.

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~2000

Blood for blood's sake!
~2400 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




England, UK

You're taking what are the common tournament lists and liberally making the assumption that all 40k is like that.

40k is not a competitive game. In order to try and make it so, players optimise, duplicate, create lists and run armies that probably go against whatever 'feel' of 40k it is you might have.

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Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






 pretre wrote:

Doesn't Australia/NZ play some sort of weird comp'd monstrosity? (Not trying to be dismissive, but this is what I've heard in the past.) I think that is more a problem for the community than a problem with the game. You might also want to put in the OP that you are specifically asking 'What has happened to 40k in Australia/NZ?'

In the US, things are a lot more varied.


Totally uncomped here in New Zealand....so no, not an issue

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http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

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Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





 pretre wrote:

Not that I'm on his side, but you want him to move out of New Zealand? lol


I'm sure there's more than one gaming club in NZ -_-
My point was change gaming locations, but moving out of NZ might not be a bad move

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/12 22:13:07



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Camas, WA

 PLC wrote:
Totally uncomped here in New Zealand....so no, not an issue

Australian Masters (one of the events you listed as your source for the data) is still heavily comp'd.

edit: You said masters, my bad. I think you meant NZ masters. You did mention Australian players though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/12 22:19:28


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Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






 Griddlelol wrote:
 pretre wrote:

Not that I'm on his side, but you want him to move out of New Zealand? lol


I'm sure there's more than one gaming club in NZ -_-
My point was change gaming locations, but moving out of NZ might not be a bad move


I've played at UKGT, numerous Australian GT events, invitationals etc so i have a bit of experience "internationally" with 40k - albeit 3e to early 5e.

That aside, my point is that your standard MEQ army of that era - 45-50 models, mechanised at 1500 - seems to have been radically reduced in size to the point where the standard MEQ tournament army now at same points seems to be a lot smaller.

Now I can see the reasons for it - more use of Special Characters, introduction of flyers, differing victory conditions - but my point is that for MEQ at least, forces look less like armies.

IMO that is certainly to the detriment to the game as a spectacle.

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Camas, WA

I think you're comparing 3rd - 5th to the limited pool you're seeing locally. Take a look at the armies doing well in US competitive events.

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Made in au
Lady of the Lake






 pretre wrote:
 PLC wrote:
Totally uncomped here in New Zealand....so no, not an issue

Australian Masters (one of the events you listed as your source for the data) is still heavily comp'd.

edit: You said masters, my bad. I think you meant NZ masters. You did mention Australian players though.


Hence why it can be considered a joke to be called as such.

   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






Yep. I'm not sure the Australian Masters has ever been considered a top end event in 40k.

NZ Masters has been totally uncomped past two years, as are most premier NZ events.

No surprise, NZ team won Australian Team Champs with round to spare.

So again, my observations on 5e and 6e so far relate to uncomp'd events.

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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





There are still plenty of large armies, take at look at various forums army lists sections. You're experiencing outliers and specific builds.
   
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New Hampshire

My Ork lists have always been model heavy. My main Infantry block is 700ish points and it's like 90 or so Orks.

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Nasty Nob





Canada

Too many people want to populate their lists with fancy super-elites.

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In short? Tournaments. Just like with MTG, 40k has gone, in short order, from "ooohh, just like the fluff describes it. Fun!" to "min-max, min-max, I need to win at all costs!" In my group, we have always liked to play some fluffy games. But when the competitive players see it, they don't inderstand the concept of fun, only winning.
   
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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
In short? Tournaments. Just like with MTG, 40k has gone, in short order, from "ooohh, just like the fluff describes it. Fun!" to "min-max, min-max, I need to win at all costs!" In my group, we have always liked to play some fluffy games. But when the competitive players see it, they don't inderstand the concept of fun, only winning.


No its just that, for them, winning is fun.

Its a perfectly legitimate way to have fun. Fluffy =/= Fun for everyone. Neither does winning = fun for everyone.

There are different kinds of people.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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