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So, essentially I am trying to find out of this is possible:

The Plan - https://www.dropbox.com/s/njozj0x7chqq38q/The%20Plan.jpg

Essentially with Mordrak, Ghost Knights and Librarian w/ teleport homer & shrouding, the summoning, sactuary, etc. in a Storm Raven with a Dreadnought with Heavy Psy Flamers in tow. Mordrak's first into the fray allows him and all the above to deep strike turn one, then the storm raven moves flat out and the Dreadnought and Mordrak's unit disembark via Shadow Skies.

Can the dreadnought pop smoke after it disembarks so it can benefit from the shrouding power while providing cover save for the unit of ghost knights so 4+ all around and the Storm raven gets a 3+ jink?

I do not think that Mordrak and his Ghost Knights can embark on any transport vehicles. They must be deployed via deepstrike, not embarked in a vehicle that is going to deep strike.

No, the rule states, "If he deploys via deep strike... and any unit he accompanies" I had that part confirmed by someone at GW.

I'm more concerned about the Dreadnought being able to pop smoke since the storm raven is moving flat out even thought the dreadnought is disembarking, does the dreadnought count as having run?

 Sorginak wrote:
No, the rule states, "If he deploys via deep strike... and any unit he accompanies" I had that part confirmed by someone at GW.

I'm more concerned about the Dreadnought being able to pop smoke since the storm raven is moving flat out even thought the dreadnought is disembarking, does the dreadnought count as having run?

Wait, you are air-droping a Dreadnought?

AWESOME! (But VERY dangerous)

Yes, the dread could pop smoke, as the dread could still shoot. Deepstrike only prevents assault.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:
No, the rule states, "If he deploys via deep strike... and any unit he accompanies" I had that part confirmed by someone at GW.

I'm more concerned about the Dreadnought being able to pop smoke since the storm raven is moving flat out even thought the dreadnought is disembarking, does the dreadnought count as having run?

Wait, you are air-droping a Dreadnought?

AWESOME! (But VERY dangerous)

Yes, the dread could pop smoke, as the dread could still shoot. Deepstrike only prevents assault.

Ya, that is why it is crucial for him to be able to pop smoke so the shrouding will beef his cover save while he provides one for Mordrak and his unit, then turn two I use the summoning to pull my dread-knights across while a squad or two of terminators deep strike in or vice versa with a dash of personal teleporter. I mostly intend to use this against xenos armies (especially if I add an inquisitor with a plasma-syphon), but I just wanted to make sure the crucial first part of it was possible so I don't always have to spend the points of personal teleporters for my dread knights to provide cover for the Mordrak drop and keep the dreadnought embarked or worse yet force the storm raven to go into hover mode.

 Sorginak wrote:
No, the rule states, "If he deploys via deep strike... and any unit he accompanies" I had that part confirmed by someone at GW.

I'm more concerned about the Dreadnought being able to pop smoke since the storm raven is moving flat out even thought the dreadnought is disembarking, does the dreadnought count as having run?

Just as a note, the people at GW do not always have a perfect knowledge of the rules. There have been a number of instances of contradictory ruling from GW on specific rules questions. I know that at the store I used to frequent in 5th edition, there were a number of things that the Manager of the store ruled incorrectly on, even if presented with rules quotes or FAQ's.

The jist of what I was trying to say is that Mordrak can only deep strike first turn. If he is embarked on a vehicle, he is not "accompanying" the Vehicle. He is a separate unit from the vehicle and is "Embarked" on it.
I will not continue to drag this out here into a rules debate, but this may need to be made into a YMDC thread.




Personally, this seems like you are putting all of your eggs into one deepstriking basket.
Mordrak+Terminators+Librairan+Dread+StormRaven is probably around 800 points or so? That is a very large portion of your army not spent on scoring models or units that support your scoring models, (though Grand Strategy does help a bit in that regard, you still need to field units it can make scoring) Unless this is part of at least a 2k list, I think you will run into problems with scoring units.


Also, I think that the GK dread is not the best platform that they have for delivering S6 AP4 templates. Purgation squads can do that very cheaply and effectively (4 incinerators in a 5 man unit for not a ton of points).

Dreads are significantly worse in close combat in 6th edition, due to the fact they are are more easily hit by grenades and meltabombs, and that S6 krak grenades can kill them now as well. Also, you are not able to Tarpit units that cannot hurt you as well, taking away one of the best uses for a Dread in Close Combat.


What are you gaining by having you Storm raven and company appear on the first turn? The enemy should be deployed in a deep strike defense pattern (loose units, buuble wrap, ect.). Also against any player with transports, you will not have had time to take out their vehicles to expose them to your incinerators and bolters from mordrak.

Having a storm raven arrive late is not always bad either. it gives you time to take out their Interceptor weapons. Also, if their flyers arrive first, your raven arriving second will have the first chance to shoot them down.




Is the Librarian really needed either? You have stealth already, and the summoning is very inconsistent and risky. Maybe consider instead an Inquisitor with Terminator armor, a Psycannon, and a Divination Re-roll to hit. He adds damage on your initial drop with his psycannon. Then, he buffs the squad with the re-roll to hit.





All that aside, to make a unit composition like this work, you will want to go all out on a first turn, in your face, style list. Dropping a unit like this unsupported will usually lead to its death, regardless of stealth or layered cover saves. Dropping a large number of threats into the opponent's face will not only deal more damage, but will also give you a Threat Overload. Put more things in their face then they can deal with, and some of them will make it through the return fire to wreck havoc am


I would include Tele-Knights and/or Interceptors in the mix as well. They can be made scoring if needed (grand Strategy from mordrak). They can also Scout or Shunt into the enemy lines first turn, for a "threat overload"

Maybe you could consider taking allies in Drop Pods for more in your face threats turn 1 (Cantor and Sternguard maybe?)

 svendrex wrote:


All that aside, to make a unit composition like this work, you will want to go all out on a first turn, in your face, style list. Dropping a unit like this unsupported will usually lead to its death, regardless of stealth or layered cover saves. Dropping a large number of threats into the opponent's face will not only deal more damage, but will also give you a Threat Overload. Put more things in their face then they can deal with, and some of them will make it through the return fire to wreck havoc am


I would include Tele-Knights and/or Interceptors in the mix as well. They can be made scoring if needed (grand Strategy from mordrak). They can also Scout or Shunt into the enemy lines first turn, for a "threat overload"

Maybe you could consider taking allies in Drop Pods for more in your face threats turn 1 (Cantor and Sternguard maybe?)

Ya, I got this idea after playing with my friend who has five drop pods and generally 3 contain strenguard, 2 with dreadnoughts and 1 with terminators. I figure utilizing the raven as a means of not only delivering Mordrak and the Dreadnought, but with a teleport homer on it and the librarian, reinforcements arrive and don't scatter turn 2 and in combination with the tele-knights and interceptors I aim to achieve that threat overload as you say. Dreadnoughts may not be the best, but them granting cover and adding two more str 6 flamers into the mix (Dreadknights, Interceptors, Redeemer and purifiers pulled through the warp by the librarian to take its place/back it up AV12 dual flamer mobile shield is pretty nice for 130 points) I aim to make my opponent's deployment area my deployment area in full by turn 2.

Ya, this is a 2k list minimum, but my last three battles have been 5.5k - 8k so I generally don't worry about that, I am into developing new strategies regardless of point restrictions (i.e. squads of inquisitors)

I have seen a lot of people who want to run the Mordrak+Summoning combo. There is a major flaw with that plan however.


Teleport Homers do not negate the scatter of "Summoned" units. it has come up on YMDC a number of times, and basically "Teleporting" and "Summoning" are different things. the only way to prevent "summonded" units from scattering is with Servo Skulls (Still scatters D6"), or Mystic henchmen (no scatter at all).


This means you are placing a unit within 6" of your librarian (probably within 3" of the unit he is in the center of) and then rolling full 2D6 scatter. That is a very risky proposition when there are enemy units nearby as well.

I see, well it is just as easy to leave some units in reserve to deep strike in and not scatter around the librarian and storm raven, I'll have the 5 points from the power then or maybe 25 and just roll divination in hopes of rolling the 4++

Also, I don't think Mordrak has independent character, but I could be wrong.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Also, I don't think Mordrak has independent character, but I could be wrong.

He isn't, but since he can be apart of the unit of ghost knights it doesn't violate the "Independent Characters can't join units that ever only consist of one model" rule, just like you can attach a prime to a squad of carnifexes, I attach a librarian and/or brotherhood champion & inquisitor to Mordrak's unit of ghost knights

I play Mordrak and love him, but a Stormraven isn't a dedicated transport so I don't think it can benefit from First to the Fray. I believe if you wanted to deepstrike the raven with Mordrak you'd have to wait in Reserves like everyone else. That being said, I'd still give the Summoning thing a go; I've thought about it, but just haven't done it yet. Just keep Mordrak alive so you can use psychic communion to bring in that raven right away to give you some aerial fire support.

The point is, the rule that Mordrak have. As the BRB says, the codex overrides the BRB.

So, what does the rule says? If he deploys via deep strike, mordrak and any unit he accompanies will automatically arrive in your first turn and will not scatter.

Is the stormraven an unit?
Is Mordrak accompanying (?) the stormraven?

If both are yes, then he can.

To the first question, under Units, there are only infantry, bikes, jetbikes, and such. Not a single vehicle. And if I recall correctly, nowhere in the BRB calls a vehicle "unit".

About the going with Mordrak thing, does embarking count as accompanying?

DakotaBlue wrote:
The point is, the rule that Mordrak have. As the BRB says, the codex overrides the BRB.

So, what does the rule says? If he deploys via deep strike, mordrak and any unit he accompanies will automatically arrive in your first turn and will not scatter.

Is the stormraven an unit?
Is Mordrak accompanying (?) the stormraven?

If both are yes, then he can.

To the first question, under Units, there are only infantry, bikes, jetbikes, and such. Not a single vehicle. And if I recall correctly, nowhere in the BRB calls a vehicle "unit".

About the going with Mordrak thing, does embarking count as accompanying?

I wouldsay that GW has set a precedence of a vehicle being rreferred to as a unit and both a transport and accompanying infantry can be counted as a single unit for the purposes of deep strike and rules concerning and effecting it. .

I. E. Coteaz can use his I've been expecting you against both a drop pod or transport and the unit it contains even if this means youblow up the transport thus exposing the unit; you roll once for reserves for both the vehicle and accompanied unit when seeing if it comes in; units embarked in a vehicle that always enters play via deep strike don't count towards your allotment that has to be on the board. I'll look for an instance of a unit inside a transport being referred to as accompanying it but it would seem unless GW releases faq 1.2 as I got the okay from a store manager I'm gonna keep doing it until a tournament official calls shenanigans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Page 36 of the BRB it refers to all deep striking models that are apart of the same deep strike instance as as a deep striking unit and based on the wording it would seem that a transport and any embarked unit essentially count as a single unit in a few instances more: If a vehicle is assaulted then the unit embarked can fire over watch, andyou can never assault a unit you didn't shoot at unless is is a unit that was forced to disembark from a vehicle you shot at and the Cambridge dictionary defines to accompany as, "to go with someone or be provided or exist at the same time as something." and as accompany has no superseding definition in either the BRB or Codex Grey Knights and there is no addendum in the faq that says anything one way or the other, the burden of proof that you can't deep strike Mordrak and the storm raven he is embarked on now rests in the hands of anyone who can find an example of what rule this would be breaking or must be addressed in a new faqs but until such time must be considered legitimate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thank you for the input everyone, this discussion has now moved to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495665.page as part of a YMDC debate should anyone wish to contribute.