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I would like to state this a thread on viability in a tournament setting before someone jumps all over this on a rant about how crappy this release was handled etc...

To point if you haven't had a chance to view the book their is an option for every flier in the game to buy codex specific fighter aces upgrades. The crappy part is not all of them do stuff for regular games. So you potentially waste a cost of a Blood angels rhino to buy a random upgrade that doesn't help your flyer/army any. Some of them are disproportionately better then their counterparts. I.E. Front AV+1, and all friendly units with 12" are fearless are two of the ones the vendetta has access too. Cant remember its third option off the top of my head. Might of been +1 BS.

So down to my question. Do you think TO's will allow these upgrades which are made legal by the book? For regular tournaments? For GT's?

I ask because there is some pretty obvious disparity in how good they are for different armies(necron fliers have 2 of 3 that wont affect regular game play). In addition, everyone wanting one of the upgrades would have to purchase the book to use them.

 Tomb King wrote:
Do you think TO's will allow these upgrades which are made legal by the book?

Nope. They're optional expansion rules from a book that most people hate. People are already talking about banning the book entirely as a protest against how GW has handled it, the absolute most you're ever going to see in tournaments is that the updates to the WD rules and Stormraven will be permitted.

I remember reading on Faeit that some tournaments were going to add the important segments of the DFtS as part of their tournament FAQs, so that everyone would have access to the rule changes.

Not planning on playing the book (local gaming group tends to stick to only regular rule book games)... but out of curiosity, what were those "2 of 3" that the Necron fliers got?

I would not expect for a lot of tournaments to allow the rules... unless they make them all available to everyone through FAQs. Although I wonder if GW will eventually put an end to that method through their legal team for possible copyright infringement....

 skoffs wrote:
Not planning on playing the book (local gaming group tends to stick to only regular rule book games)... but out of curiosity, what were those "2 of 3" that the Necron fliers got?

One of them let you re-roll to hit rolls of one. However, every necron flyer I know either doesnt roll to hit or is already twin linked. The other one that didnt help was for the game mode for fliers only. The final upgrade it could roll was actually decent though. All necron models within 12" get reanimated on a 4+. So for the cost of a BA rhino you have a 1/3 chance of getting something cool.




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strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
I would not expect for a lot of tournaments to allow the rules... unless they make them all available to everyone through FAQs. Although I wonder if GW will eventually put an end to that method through their legal team for possible copyright infringement....

If they re-ship the book do you think this would change how willing TO's are to accept the new rules provided?

TOs will probably make it another qualifier, like stipulating no allies, single FOC, etc.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
TOs will probably make it another qualifier, like stipulating no allies, single FOC, etc.

So more needless house rules then. Gotcha.

Its better than having ham-fisted cheese players argue with a TO about the legality or otherwise of Forge World models and rules, as I saw today.

 Tomb King wrote:
If they re-ship the book do you think this would change how willing TO's are to accept the new rules provided?

Not likely. Even if you ignore the distribution issues and absurd price they're still terrible rules.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So more needless house rules then. Gotcha.

No, because the aces upgrades are OPTIONAL rules. FW rules, the DftS update to WD rules, etc, are all specifically labeled as part of standard 40k so it's a house rule if you reject them. Rejecting an optional expansion is no different than saying "we're not using the Planetstrike rules in this tournament".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
If they re-ship the book do you think this would change how willing TO's are to accept the new rules provided?

Not likely. Even if you ignore the distribution issues and absurd price they're still terrible rules.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So more needless house rules then. Gotcha.

No, because the aces upgrades are OPTIONAL rules. FW rules, the DftS update to WD rules, etc, are all specifically labeled as part of standard 40k so it's a house rule if you reject them. Rejecting an optional expansion is no different than saying "we're not using the Planetstrike rules in this tournament".

The way they are listed in the book didnt look optional they are rolled at the same time as warlord traits.

DftS is not optional.

DftS adds the Stormraven to 2 more chapters, chapters that got FAQ'd telling us to look for the rules in the DftS compendium.

Now, if your LGS or TO's want to ban it, is another thing.

DakotaBlue wrote:
DftS adds the Stormraven to 2 more chapters, chapters that got FAQ'd telling us to look for the rules in the DftS compendium.

There's a bit of confusion here. DftS has two sets of rules:

1) Updated unit rules (Stormraven and the WD flyers) which are mandatory changes to the game as stated in the FAQs.

2) Additional optional rules for dogfighting/special pilot upgrades/etc.

This thread is about #2, not #1.


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 Tomb King wrote:
The way they are listed in the book didnt look optional they are rolled at the same time as warlord traits.

Double check that please? When they were first printed in CoF it said that all of it was optional, and I'd be very surprised if GW suddenly made it part of the standard game.

Also, rolling at the same time as warlord traits doesn't necessarily mean anything about it being optional or not, it just says that if you are using them you roll them at that time.

 Peregrine wrote:
Nope. They're optional expansion rules from a book that most people hate. People are already talking about banning the book entirely as a protest against how GW has handled it, the absolute most you're ever going to see in tournaments is that the updates to the WD rules and Stormraven will be permitted.

I have a feeling you are 100% correct. I was just browsing the GW site however, and I noticed that the book is listed under essentials, and not under expansions... so I wonder if we'll see a push from GW to make these rules standard.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Nope. They're optional expansion rules from a book that most people hate. People are already talking about banning the book entirely as a protest against how GW has handled it, the absolute most you're ever going to see in tournaments is that the updates to the WD rules and Stormraven will be permitted.

I have a feeling you are 100% correct. I was just browsing the GW site however, and I noticed that the book is listed under essentials, and not under expansions... so I wonder if we'll see a push from GW to make these rules standard.

The book is listed as an essential, as it contains official rule updates for flyers for various codices which are referred to in FAQs.

Peregrine is talking about a small section in the book that is optional.

Most of the changes from the expansion have been faq'd into 6th ed already. If the BT and C:SM FAQ says they get storm ravens then they don't need the expansion to run one in a gt.

The 50 point upgrades are a hell of a gamble. For the cost of 2 upgrades a necron army can just add another scythe.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Nope. They're optional expansion rules from a book that most people hate. People are already talking about banning the book entirely as a protest against how GW has handled it, the absolute most you're ever going to see in tournaments is that the updates to the WD rules and Stormraven will be permitted.

I have a feeling you are 100% correct. I was just browsing the GW site however, and I noticed that the book is listed under essentials, and not under expansions... so I wonder if we'll see a push from GW to make these rules standard.

The book is listed as an essential, as it contains official rule updates for flyers for various codices which are referred to in FAQs.

Peregrine is talking about a small section in the book that is optional.

The air combat game type is optional. I don't see where it states the ability to purchase aces is optional/disallowed for standard games?

if its not an essential group of rules to your gameplay, its probanly because you already have flyers. For armies like the Black Templars or Orks, if one wanted to field a Storm Raven or a Dakkajet, it would be essential, wouldn't it?

After seeing the Aces upgrades (online)... I am extremely happy I did not buy this book....

 Peregrine wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
DftS adds the Stormraven to 2 more chapters, chapters that got FAQ'd telling us to look for the rules in the DftS compendium.

There's a bit of confusion here. DftS has two sets of rules:

1) Updated unit rules (Stormraven and the WD flyers) which are mandatory changes to the game as stated in the FAQs.

2) Additional optional rules for dogfighting/special pilot upgrades/etc.

This thread is about #2, not #1.


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 Tomb King wrote:
The way they are listed in the book didnt look optional they are rolled at the same time as warlord traits.

Double check that please? When they were first printed in CoF it said that all of it was optional, and I'd be very surprised if GW suddenly made it part of the standard game.

Also, rolling at the same time as warlord traits doesn't necessarily mean anything about it being optional or not, it just says that if you are using them you roll them at that time.

Dogfighting rules are optional and have to be agreed upon with your opponent. Fighter aces are covered seperately and have no such stipulation.

But is there any kind of note at the beginning of the chapter/book? For example, "here are some optional rules" with the aces and dogfighting rules in the same chapter and the rules for the individual flyers in a separate "this is an official update" chapter.

If there is, my opinion is still that they will never see wide use.

If there isn't and the ace pilot rules really are meant for standard 40k then it will probably end up like a less-popular version of FW rules. RAW they will be part of the game, but many TOs will house rule them away and many players won't want to play against them. The big difference here will be that FW rules are fairly popular and there's significant demand for games/tournaments that allow them, while I have yet to see anyone who actually likes DftS and would lobby to have it included in their events.

edit, just did a google i made a boo boo

Since a good chunk of the rules (storm talon, ork flyers) came out of White Dwarf, did the White Dwarf have a note saying whether these were official rules or optional? Can we believe anything that GW prints at all?

/sarcasm

Look, its an addition to the rules, kind of like the old Chapter Approved books, compiled from White Dwarf and a limited edition book.