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You are correct I am proposing that marines become 1/6th more durable against everything, it's not a chapter trait just a general marine rule so it's not balancing against anything else other than other codex and I think it'll be fine against them.

Tabletop power wise it's an increase to be sure but i dont think anyon3 would think we are now op. Fluff wise i can see a marine surviving a battle cannon hit with more probability than a guardsman, that's the intention of the rule.

To prevent cases where marines are harder to wound than large vehicles with massive weapon we could change it to the following.

Transhuman physilogy: All wound rolls made against models with this ability suffer minus 1 unless the weapon inflicting the wound has a strength equal to triple this models toughness or more. (A roll of 6 always wounds).

This covers things like volcano cannons and reaper chainswords still being able to hurt marines on a 2+

 WisdomLS wrote:
You are correct I am proposing that marines become 1/6th more durable against everything, it's not a chapter trait just a general marine rule so it's not balancing against anything else other than other codex and I think it'll be fine against them.

Tabletop power wise it's an increase to be sure but i dont think anyon3 would think we are now op. Fluff wise i can see a marine surviving a battle cannon hit with more probability than a guardsman, that's the intention of the rule.

To prevent cases where marines are harder to wound than large vehicles with massive weapon we could change it to the following.

Transhuman physilogy: All wound rolls made against models with this ability suffer minus 1 unless the weapon inflicting the wound has a strength equal to triple this models toughness or more. (A roll of 6 always wounds).

This covers things like volcano cannons and reaper chainswords still being able to hurt marines on a 2+

Have you thought that through?

Because it seems you didn't but here let me make an exemple marine to show you how utterly slowed that idea is:
Legion trait, Alpha Legion: Plague marine. 17pts
Has t5 ergo S15 weaponry only is able to wound on 2 + for whatever reason.
Has disgustingly resilient on 5+
has a 3 + armor.
Has the -1 to hi trait form AL trait.

I am sorry but that is completely off the charts

Or even more questionable: A plasma gun gets to wound on 3+ normally with the non overheating mode now it does on 4+? A gun that is primarily designed to take out heavy armored models which costs somehwere inbetween 13- 17 pts?

Here’s what I reckon to Marines:

+1A to the basic statline. (I.e. basic marines get 2A; Sgts/Vets get 3, etc.) Makes Tac Marines more flexible, helps out Assault Marines (in particular, you’re not totally mugging yourself off by taking any of the special weapon options), Terminators get punchier.

Let any Marines with Bolt weapons shoot twice. Sorts out the issue of anti-horde damage output.

I’m not sure they need two wounds; leave that for the Primaris lads to make them special, but I think if their damage output gets a bit of a boost, Marines will feel less fragile too.

Oh and how about this: if all your Tac/Dev/Assault squads are full-strength, you get an extra command point for each. Encourages bigger units and Codex Astartes compliance, gives Combat Squads a reason to exist rather than just taking 2x5 squads, gives Marines a bit of a CP boost without having to resort to mixing in Guard. It’s not a huge thing, but it gives a little boost for taking a fluffy army, rather than making it seem like you’re intentionally hobbling yourself by doing so.

 Nazrak wrote:
Here’s what I reckon to Marines:

+1A to the basic statline. (I.e. basic marines get 2A; Sgts/Vets get 3, etc.) Makes Tac Marines more flexible, helps out Assault Marines (in particular, you’re not totally mugging yourself off by taking any of the special weapon options), Terminators get punchier.

Let any Marines with Bolt weapons shoot twice. Sorts out the issue of anti-horde damage output.

I’m not sure they need two wounds; leave that for the Primaris lads to make them special, but I think if their damage output gets a bit of a boost, Marines will feel less fragile too.

Oh and how about this: if all your Tac/Dev/Assault squads are full-strength, you get an extra command point for each. Encourages bigger units and Codex Astartes compliance, gives Combat Squads a reason to exist rather than just taking 2x5 squads, gives Marines a bit of a CP boost without having to resort to mixing in Guard. It’s not a huge thing, but it gives a little boost for taking a fluffy army, rather than making it seem like you’re intentionally hobbling yourself by doing so.

That could work but what is full strength? 10 Man? because that is not clear cut, since CSM can field up to 20 man. altough CSM still have cultists so they don't need that.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Here’s what I reckon to Marines:

+1A to the basic statline. (I.e. basic marines get 2A; Sgts/Vets get 3, etc.) Makes Tac Marines more flexible, helps out Assault Marines (in particular, you’re not totally mugging yourself off by taking any of the special weapon options), Terminators get punchier.

Let any Marines with Bolt weapons shoot twice. Sorts out the issue of anti-horde damage output.

I’m not sure they need two wounds; leave that for the Primaris lads to make them special, but I think if their damage output gets a bit of a boost, Marines will feel less fragile too.

Oh and how about this: if all your Tac/Dev/Assault squads are full-strength, you get an extra command point for each. Encourages bigger units and Codex Astartes compliance, gives Combat Squads a reason to exist rather than just taking 2x5 squads, gives Marines a bit of a CP boost without having to resort to mixing in Guard. It’s not a huge thing, but it gives a little boost for taking a fluffy army, rather than making it seem like you’re intentionally hobbling yourself by doing so.

That could work but what is full strength? 10 Man? because that is not clear cut, since CSM can field up to 20 man. altough CSM still have cultists so they don't need that.

Oh yeah, sorry, I was just thinking in terms of loyalists, so yeah, ten-man. Given that CSM have access to Cultists (crunch-wise) and don’t follow the C. Astartes (fluff), then I’d be ok with not having this apply to them.

Oh yeah, sorry, I was just thinking in terms of loyalists, so yeah, ten-man. Given that CSM have access to Cultists (crunch-wise) and don’t follow the C. Astartes (fluff), then I’d be ok with not having this apply to them.

I mean you could just say that for CSM to get the full benefit you need min 20 but get 2 CP? It would be fluffy since legions like the iron warriors still use such blocks for siege warfare and attritional style. Also 20 CSM are still 260 pts, i'd say that is fair game since that is more then a 1/10 of points in a 2000 game.
As for bolters on marines just doubling fire,ehh. I'd like for them to get something along the line of: "If a Astartes / heretics Astartes unit has not moved it adds plus 1 shot to the shooting charachteristic." This includes All weapons and gives a significant buff to SW's which let's face it are quite overpriced, aswell as buffing the Rapidfire weaponry moresoe then the heavy weapons. Still Bigger squads with HW's now would be better, even smaller squads. It would also be a good buff across the board. However i'd say that it should be restricted to Terminators of any colour, Tac /CSM squads, Devastor / Havoc Squads and ofcourse the Elite Chosen/Sternguard (i belive squads). I don't see it necesarry for exemple on Oblits or aggressors or primaris marines since they anyways get the better toys as standard.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Have you thought that through?

Because it seems you didn't but here let me make an exemple marine to show you how utterly slowed that idea is:
Legion trait, Alpha Legion: Plague marine. 17pts
Has t5 ergo S15 weaponry only is able to wound on 2 + for whatever reason.
Has disgustingly resilient on 5+
has a 3 + armor.
Has the -1 to hi trait form AL trait.

I am sorry but that is completely off the charts

Or even more questionable: A plasma gun gets to wound on 3+ normally with the non overheating mode now it does on 4+? A gun that is primarily designed to take out heavy armored models which costs somehwere inbetween 13- 17 pts?

I have thought it through, are people complaining about the brokenness that is the Alpha legion plague marine, are they storming all the top tables? With a small but significant boost to their survivability they might become nearly as durable per point as a cultist or possibly even a guardsman!

If certain marine units seem to be ridiculously overpowered by this buff then they can have their points adjusted accordingly but the only ones that jump out at me initially would be some of the multiwound nurgle terminators and a few characters especially the 3 primarchs.

Its not the perfect solution but I think it is better and more likely to actually be implemented due to the lack of stat block changes and rolls involved. I just want my marines to feel a little more special than a standard human/eldar/ork and this gives them a unique ability that improves the whole range of models in an instant.
Sure it makes them more survivable against an overcharged plasmagun, but another way of looking at it is that it makes them more survivable against an overcharged plasmagun than a guardsman :-)

Dude, that is off the charts. It is bad enough allready that -1 to hits exist, but such plague marines would literally break the game and worst of all you can not adapt the cost of these since regular DG plague marines won't get said benefit.

Now they won't charge the top tables. Non of the cult marines do but after such a buff, i'll bet with you that we see an increase in marines played in either alpha legion or Ravenguard.

10 Firewarriors shoot at rapidfire range against such marines (with al or Ravenguard trait) 70 vs 65 pts so a 5 pts advantage to the Tau:

20 shots: Hitting on 5+ means 6 2/3 hits only.Normally they would wound the marine on 3+ in this case however only on 4+ so there will be only 3 1/3 wounds to deal with. Statistically you lose 1 marine where before you would have lost easily 1 1/2 marine.


Secondly: A plasma gun should kill a marine, IT is designed to Kill marines or other equally good armored units. It costs atleast as much as a marine to field one, often on a inferior body. The plasma gun is by far not the problem of marines, and should kill regardless if it hits so long it is not a vehicle.

If you want to talk about a broken special weapons talk about DE.

-1 to hit is only game breaking to people that like playing strict gunline and like to plink away. Sorry not sorry.

Not saying the rest of the fixes are good as I didn't read them, but this whining has got to stop.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
-1 to hit is only game breaking to people that like playing strict gunline and like to plink away. Sorry not sorry.

Not saying the rest of the fixes are good as I didn't read them, but this whining has got to stop.

Yeah sure: What was that ? your Hellblaster unit just killed itself because it shot at my Hellbrute? Fun times....
Additionally there are armies that are set up as either Specializd in Gunline or Melee. SO let's just tell them to go F themselves? Via one trait? Which even against generalists is too good?
You see you can even let Marines duke it out, Ultramarines vs Ravenguard or alpha legion for exemple. Just the fact that the later will suffer less hits --> less wounds --> less lost models means that by the time you are in rapid fire range, which then removes -1 to hit, he will allready have a potentially massive advantage. You can not tell me that that is correct or healthy for overall gamebalance.
Especially since they all pay the same price for the basic dude with a bolter.

Edit:
But let's say -1 is not a problem, how about -2 ? or better? CSM can bring that to the table, Aeldari can bring it too, they even have vehicles that profit from trait and from beeing a difficult to hit flyer?
Is that a fun matchup for marines?

Slayer,
-1 to hit *over 12" away* is what you're talking about. -1 to hit vs *all attacks* would be a much, much bigger deal. And -1 to wound would be even worse.

Others,
-1 to wound is *not* just a 1/6 increase in durability. A 6+++ FnP is, provided there aren't other FnPs in the equation, but that's because it's modifying a "7+" roll - in other words, you have 0/6 chance of success, then add 1/6 to it.

Against things wounded on a 5+, you go from a 2/6 of success to a 1/6 of success: that's 100% increase in durability. For every shot it used to take, it now takes 2.

For example, Guardsmen shooting against current-Marines:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/3) = 1/18 kills per shot
FnP Marines:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)(5/6) = 5/108 kills per shot
-1-to-wound Marines
(1/2)(1/6)(1/3) = 1/36 kills per shot

It takes *twice* as many S3 shots to kill a marine with -1-to-wound than now. That's not a 1/6 improvement.

And that's ignoring that RG/AL/Alaitoc *only* affects shooting, and even then only outside 12". The proposed rule has neither of those side effects.

This makes Marines flat-out OP.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
-1 to hit is only game breaking to people that like playing strict gunline and like to plink away. Sorry not sorry.

Not saying the rest of the fixes are good as I didn't read them, but this whining has got to stop.

Yeah sure: What was that ? your Hellblaster unit just killed itself because it shot at my Hellbrute? Fun times....
Additionally there are armies that are set up as either Specializd in Gunline or Melee. SO let's just tell them to go F themselves? Via one trait? Which even against generalists is too good?
You see you can even let Marines duke it out, Ultramarines vs Ravenguard or alpha legion for exemple. Just the fact that the later will suffer less hits --> less wounds --> less lost models means that by the time you are in rapid fire range, which then removes -1 to hit, he will allready have a potentially massive advantage. You can not tell me that that is correct or healthy for overall gamebalance.
Especially since they all pay the same price for the basic dude with a bolter.

Edit:
But let's say -1 is not a problem, how about -2 ? or better? CSM can bring that to the table, Aeldari can bring it too, they even have vehicles that profit from trait and from beeing a difficult to hit flyer?
Is that a fun matchup for marines?

-2 to hit isn't a big deal. -3 I'll concede.

Also yeah I've had Plasma explode to shooting stuff outside 12", and you know what? That was a risk I decided to take. Make the decision or don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Slayer,
-1 to hit *over 12" away* is what you're talking about. -1 to hit vs *all attacks* would be a much, much bigger deal. And -1 to wound would be even worse.

Others,
-1 to wound is *not* just a 1/6 increase in durability. A 6+++ FnP is, provided there aren't other FnPs in the equation, but that's because it's modifying a "7+" roll - in other words, you have 0/6 chance of success, then add 1/6 to it.

Against things wounded on a 5+, you go from a 2/6 of success to a 1/6 of success: that's 100% increase in durability. For every shot it used to take, it now takes 2.

For example, Guardsmen shooting against current-Marines:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/3) = 1/18 kills per shot
FnP Marines:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)(5/6) = 5/108 kills per shot
-1-to-wound Marines
(1/2)(1/6)(1/3) = 1/36 kills per shot

It takes *twice* as many S3 shots to kill a marine with -1-to-wound than now. That's not a 1/6 improvement.

And that's ignoring that RG/AL/Alaitoc *only* affects shooting, and even then only outside 12". The proposed rule has neither of those side effects.

This makes Marines flat-out OP.

-1 to Hit is always shorthand for the -1 to hit outside 12" and you know that.

Of course. But I'm assuming the -1-to-wound is *not*.