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If the Lasgun was increased from AP- to AP5, would this make them more dangerous, or would it be about the same? I saw such a change in a custom Codex somewhere a while back (might have been Kaemoda).

That would make orks sad

You wouldnt want orks sad

That would make them Hellguns of the Deamonhunter Stormtroopers.

If penetrated ork armour, orkz would not be sad. Orkz would be in such emotional wrecks that they would all throw their grots out of the nearest window. Then the orkz would remember that "Oh, well what is one more army that can peirce all of our armour with but only their standard rifle?!"

I think a S3 AP5 Rapid Fire weapon would be a decent and balanced weapon for IG, or even a homebrew non-Marine army (like one I have in mind - I'm always full of ideas LOL).

At S3 AP5 it is better than a Lasgun, yet not as strong as a Pulse Rifle (or Bolter for that matter). I was thinking of one of two options for it:

- 18" Assault 2
- 24" Rapid Fire

Take ya pick.

I think they are fine at AP-. Personally I would love to have the option that if an enemy is within 12inches I could either chose to rapid fire them or “Fix Bayonets” where you get one shot but can assault.

+1 Panzer 1944, even though if would be too deadly with FRFSRF before an assault.
Maybe just give them a laspistol along with their lasgun ? (no CCW obviously)

And I'm proud to kill stuff when my guys have the crappiest regular infantry rifle in the game
I just love how a lasgun / bayonet is just as efficient as a boltgun / chainsword when it comes to killing T6 beasties

Not AP5, but AP6.

It's still a laser, it should pierce stuff, but AP5 for that quantity of shots would wreck some armies, like orks, pretty much.

Instead, AP6, would pierce a very few things, that almost every time don't get into short range from rapid fire weapons.

[S3 AP5]
- armies get wrecked with stronger S4/S5 AP5 weapons so I personally don't see the problem with this one

[S4 AP-]
- upping the Strength by +1 but keeping it at AP- seems alright, it'd kill stuff a bit better

TanKoL wrote:
+1 Panzer 1944, even though if would be too deadly with FRFSRF before an assault.

I would make it an order so you could only do one or the other. Either FRFSRF or One Shot Assault. Would make sense that way since it's the commanders that would order a bayonet charge not just individuals soldiers.

If anyone is good at mathhammer stats, work this out.

1) The would-be weapon is S3 AP5 Rapid Fire. Never mind range - assume for this that the user is within it.
2) The user has the stats of an IG Veteran with Carapace Armour - a well-trained human soldier in other words.
3) Now assume that the model is in a unit with 9 other such models, all similarly armed.

How likely is it that 10 S3 AP5 hits (or 20 in RF range) could slay units from other armies? Go!!

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
That would make them Hellguns of the Deamonhunter Stormtroopers.

This isnt a thinly veiled "lets fix hellguns/hotshots" is it?


Look basic Lasguns are suppose to be flashlights, they have been so for years and no one seems to be upset by that fact!

Well, you're 1/3 more likely to kill things with a 5+ save, doesn't really require much mathhammer.

You'd kill 1/6th more orks, 1/3rd more genestealers/guardsmen/guardians/DE warriors.

I think lasguns are great the way they are, fits the fluff. Easy to maintain and supply, and if you've got enough of them, the enemy goes down.

Maybe if you're planning on doing a non-imperial human army, they don't have the discipline of the guard - so no commissars, no orders, but they're well equipped and very highly trained, so they've got carapace and autoguns with Manstopper (Armor-piercing) ammo.

Best comparison is to have your 10 specialist dudes shooting at some IG vets with flak and lasguns and FRF, see how it measures up.
Up to 24", your guys will make 6 hits, 3 kills on the vets.
Up to 24", the vets will make 12 hits, 3 kills on your dudes.

Within 12", your guys will make 12 hits, 6 kills on the vets.
Within 12", the vets will make 18 hits, 4.5 kills on your guys.

Of course, the guardsmen need a dice roll for the orders, and an officer within range, while your guys don't. And of course I'm just playing with averages. So I'd say a squad of guys so equipped should come in at maybe 110 points. Maybe instead of having the Guard platoon system, you have more independent characters available to lead your troops, since orders don't mean so much. Have 1-5 squads of your elite troopers available as a single troops choice, give them similar weapons options to veterans, no ability to combine squads, and junior officers with carapace as 1-5 slotless HQ choices akin to priests - stats and options of a lieutenant, perhaps the stubborn special rule, make 'em independent characters, say 25 points each.

Suddenly ran off with the possibilities there, but how does that sound?

NeoAigaion wrote:
If anyone is good at mathhammer stats, work this out.

1) The would-be weapon is S3 AP5 Rapid Fire. Never mind range - assume for this that the user is within it.
2) The user has the stats of an IG Veteran with Carapace Armour - a well-trained human soldier in other words.
3) Now assume that the model is in a unit with 9 other such models, all similarly armed.

How likely is it that 10 S3 AP5 hits (or 20 in RF range) could slay units from other armies? Go!!

MEQ
10 shots, 6.66 hits, 2.22 wounds, 0.74 unsaved wounds.

Ork
10 shots, 6.66 hits, 2.22 wounds, no saves.

oh yeah, dang, my maths was based on 9 shooters, not 10. Still the comparison's there.

Maybe if you're planning on doing a non-imperial human army, they don't have the discipline of the guard - so no commissars, no orders, but they're well equipped and very highly trained, so they've got carapace and...

the Las Carbine @ S3 AP5. If Orks don't like it then they should bring more DAKKADAKKA!! :-P

Anyhoo yes, the idea is that these non-Imperial humans are well-trained soldiers, but not the type who need constant ordering around.

NeoAigaion wrote:
If anyone is good at mathhammer stats, work this out.

1) The would-be weapon is S3 AP5 Rapid Fire. Never mind range - assume for this that the user is within it.
2) The user has the stats of an IG Veteran with Carapace Armour - a well-trained human soldier in other words.
3) Now assume that the model is in a unit with 9 other such models, all similarly armed.

How likely is it that 10 S3 AP5 hits (or 20 in RF range) could slay units from other armies? Go!!

Very little, the issue pops up when you are dealing with blobs. Imagine 45-90 (or potentially as much as 135 with FRFSRF) shots that can all pierce Ork armour. Orks will be absolutely useless against IG. Now perhaps as an upgrade for veterans (like they modified their equipment (without permission most likely)) to increase its power. It could provide vets with a small boost (so make it cost like 20 points) that makes some sense in fluff (vets tend to modify their equipment more than raw recruits).

NeoAigaion wrote:


Anyhoo yes, the idea is that these non-Imperial humans are well-trained soldiers, but not the type who need constant ordering around.

Because every single Imperial regiment is a poor hodge podge of terribly disciplined, ill-equipped and morale-less fighting force that needs orders from someone every two minutes.

Buttons wrote:

Very little, the issue pops up when you are dealing with blobs. Imagine 45-90 (or potentially as much as 135 with FRFSRF) shots that can all pierce Ork armour. Orks will be absolutely useless against IG.

LOLWUT? Even when considering the absolute maximal 150 lasgun shots from a 50 strong blob with FRFSRF (yes, even the sergeants have lasguns, because we are cheating) you will only kill 20 Orks... With AP5, you will kill 24 Orks... Wow, truly devastating, that 6+ armour save makes all the difference !

Now, with S4 AP-, you will kill ~32 Orks.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Very little, the issue pops up when you are dealing with blobs. Imagine 45-90 (or potentially as much as 135 with FRFSRF) shots that can all pierce Ork armour. Orks will be absolutely useless against IG.

LOLWUT? Even when considering the absolute maximal 150 lasgun shots from a 50 strong blob with FRFSRF (yes, even the sergeants have lasguns, because we are cheating) you will only kill 20 Orks... With AP5, you will kill 24 Orks... Wow, truly devastating, that 6+ armour save makes all the difference !

Now, with S4 AP-, you will kill ~32 Orks.

It really is devastating for a single 280 point unit to be able to nearly wipe out at Ork blob (Orks only come in groups of 30) in a single shooting phase, str 4 is simply more broken. Lets try that strength 4 against marines and you will wipe out virtually anything you want in a single shooting phase. That blob of 30 Orks? Kill over 30 a turn. That tactical squad? Kill 11 a turn. Those five terminators? Kill 5 a turn. That flyer? Glance it to death in a turn. Almost any dark eldar vehicle? Glance it to death in a turn. There is a reason that the IG have weapons like they do, because it is balanced, if you want to penetrate armour take plasma guns, or meltaguns, or grenade launchers, or sniper rifles, or flamers, or heavy weapons, if you want lots of bullets, take lasguns, by increasing the AP or god forbid the strength of a lasgun you make them much more powerful.

Besides it isn't like any lasgun armed unit needs a boost except for penal legions who won't really benefit from this.

Also by making lasguns AP 6 you are screwing over more than just the Orks, there are the Tyranids (do you really need to torment their players even more?), there are wyches (yes, lets take a unit that is already suffering from overwatch and give literally everyone the ability to penetrate their armour), there are Kroot (yes, all must suffer in overwatch). As a small upgrade for vets or something AP 6 or 5 is fine, standard for a blob of guardsmen is really feths with light infantry, and increasing the strength is downright broken.

NeoAigaion wrote:


[S4 AP-]
- upping the Strength by +1 but keeping it at AP- seems alright, it'd kill stuff a bit better

The day lasguns can glance vehicles is the day I stop playing guard.

Someone at my FLGS tried a homebrew where his CCS could give an order to "over-charge" their lasguns. Basically it gave them AP5 if they passed, but they had Gets Hot. Everyone actually kinda liked it.

 washout77 wrote:
Someone at my FLGS tried a homebrew where his CCS could give an order to "over-charge" their lasguns. Basically it gave them AP5 if they passed, but they had Gets Hot. Everyone actually kinda liked it.

No wonder. Because AP5 is super-effective against 99% of the armies and totally worth the Gets Hot .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
Someone at my FLGS tried a homebrew where his CCS could give an order to "over-charge" their lasguns. Basically it gave them AP5 if they passed, but they had Gets Hot. Everyone actually kinda liked it.

No wonder. Because AP5 is super-effective against 99% of the armies and totally worth the Gets Hot .

Ignores the save of the basic infantry of Dark Eldar, Orks, Guard, Tyranids, as well as limited troops from Tau, Eldar, and CSM, as well as some elite and fast attack choices in every codex except vanilla marines, blood angels, dark angels, and black templars.

Buttons wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
Someone at my FLGS tried a homebrew where his CCS could give an order to "over-charge" their lasguns. Basically it gave them AP5 if they passed, but they had Gets Hot. Everyone actually kinda liked it.

No wonder. Because AP5 is super-effective against 99% of the armies and totally worth the Gets Hot .

Ignores the save of the basic infantry of Dark Eldar, Orks, Guard, Tyranids, as well as limited troops from Tau, Eldar, and CSM, as well as some elite and fast attack choices in every codex except vanilla marines, blood angels, dark angels, and black templars.

Problem is, that even though you will get a 16/33% damage increase, you will also have:
- Little damage to begin with, thankfully to the S3.
- Targets that are completely ignorant to that extra damage, because they are meant to be damaged. Orks and Nids won't crumble because of that 2-3 extra models they will lose (like no player will burst out in a "OH NO! I'VE LOST 12 MODELS INSTEAD OF 10 IN MY 30 STRONG UNIT! I'M DOOOOOOMED!!!!").
- Targets that will die anyways. Yeah, you can punch through DE armour, but know what? Yeah, it is like being happy that your autocannon can shot down a Raider...
- Cover. Cover everywhere. Especially in the current Aegishammer edition.

- Little damage to begin with, thankfully to the S3.

Sucks to be toughness 3 I guess

- Targets that are completely ignorant to that extra damage, because they are meant to be damaged. Orks and Nids won't crumble because of that 2-3 extra models they will lose (like no player will burst out in a "OH NO! I'VE LOST 12 MODELS INSTEAD OF 10 IN MY 30 STRONG UNIT! I'M DOOOOOOMED!!!!").

It adds up a lot. Shooting at other guardsmen will increase the losses by 1/3rd, so 10 losses becomes 13-14, 20 losses becomes 26-27, 30 losses becomes around 40 losses. It adds up to a lot over time.

- Targets that will die anyways. Yeah, you can punch through DE armour, but know what? Yeah, it is like being happy that your autocannon can shot down a Raider...

Except not because 20 kills won't stop that blob of guardsmen, but killing 27 of them will help a great bit.

- Cover. Cover everywhere. Especially in the current Aegishammer edition.

Because you know how armies like Orks and Tyranids can just camp in cover the entire game behind an aegis defensive line and defeat a Guard army.

^Yeah, Guardsmen die when people shoot them . Newsflash: you don't need AP5 to achieve this. Actually if I would lose +7 guys at the cost of 8 guys on your side (because of Gets Hot), then I would probably just laugh and call it a deal.

And man, around here, Orks and Nids camp behind ADLs or in cover all day (because of the objective game). Except Nob Bikers and MCs, but AP5 won't affect those.

To simply put, I think AP5 would give so little that it simply doesn't worth the effort. It is useless against MEQ (50+% of the armies), needs a specific enemy (low-mid numbered squads with T3 and Sv5+/6+) in a specific situation (out of cover, without any chance to recover or soak up the damage) to be effective and in return, all you can say is that your lasguns are no longer mere flashlights ...