Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was thinking and I wanted warp talons because they look cool, but they are pretty crappy. I was wondering, if you give them MoT, increasing their daemon save to 4++, then stick a Herald of Tzeentch with Grimoire of true names with them, could that give them a 2++ save? And if so, is it worth it? (I would have a unit of 10-15 btw)

Pretty expensive and unreliable tactic. Wrong forum also, you want Tactics.

You can't put the herald in with the warp talons as demonic instability doesn't allow it (Pg 26 demons codex).

He doesnt need to join them, they can be a friendly unit within 12"

Yep sorry, just got what you meant. Still it is a pricey and risky tactic. I'd only really consider the Grimoire on a DP along with Fatey as he can reroll it.

Ok thanks, its legal. I can just do the 12" thing with Fateweaver then. However, I would only do it in 3500+ games...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He doesnt need to join them, they can be a friendly unit within 12"

Would you please be so kind to provide the page and paragraph for this assertion. Thank you.

whill4 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He doesnt need to join them, they can be a friendly unit within 12"

Would you please be so kind to provide the page and paragraph for this assertion. Thank you.

Grimoire of True Names has a range.

Von Marlon wrote:
You can't put the herald in with the warp talons as demonic instability doesn't allow it (Pg 26 demons codex).

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm pretty sure that rule says a unit with it can't be joined by a model without daemonic instability. It doesn't restrict a model with daemonic instability form joining a unit without... or am I misreading something.

I mean I still think this is a very expensive trick to pull and probably not worth it but it can still be done I think.

 RatLord wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:
You can't put the herald in with the warp talons as demonic instability doesn't allow it (Pg 26 demons codex).

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm pretty sure that rule says a unit with it can't be joined by a model without daemonic instability. It doesn't restrict a model with daemonic instability form joining a unit without... or am I misreading something.

I mean I still think this is a very expensive trick to pull and probably not worth it but it can still be done I think.

You are indeed correct, it does say that though I guess the reason I never noticed was that I presumed it to intend vice versa but thank you for turning this back into a You Make Da Call post haha! I play Daemons and CSM myself but i'd still have to stick with what I think it intended to mean.. Can't exactly go back on it now anyway. lol

EDIT: There is also the Daemons of "alignment" vs Mark of "something". You could make the argument that because the wording on Warp Talons doesn't specifically say they are "Daemons of Tzeentch" even though they have the mark and are Daemons, they are not allowed to join any Daemon unit with "Daemons of Tzeentch" as it doesn't state that they are in the same respect as the Daemons codex.

Needs an FAQ in either case. Even though I'd side with it as not being allowed, I'd still allow it as it is way too finicky in its wording to decide 100% if it is or isn't legal.

Von Marlon wrote:

EDIT: There is also the Daemons of "alignment" vs Mark of "something". You could make the argument that because the wording on Warp Talons doesn't specifically say they are "Daemons of Tzeentch" even though they have the mark and are Daemons, they are not allowed to join any Daemon unit with "Daemons of Tzeentch" as it doesn't state that they are in the same respect as the Daemons codex.

Wait, so you're saying that even though it's painfully clear that they're both daemons in service to Tzeentch, that because of some strange wording, they wouldn't be allowed to be joined because one has the "Mark of Tzeentch" while the other is a "Daemon of Tzeentch"?

If some guy legitimately took that position, I would take the position of not playing with that guy. That's terrible rules lawyering to the umteenth degree, and I doubt any TO would back that position, so being "forced" to play against him would be incredibly unlikely.

Doesn't the rule go on to define exactly what Daemonic Alignment is?
I believe it's a lot more clear further in the rules as to who can benefit.

Oh I agree entirely with von marlon the intention of the rule, and I believe you're right, they cannot join a unit that isn't composed of daemons of Tzeentch.. or whatever herald you happen to bring. I think the confusion for me comes from rules like the daemons of slaanesh or daemons of nurgle rule because it says "units composed entirely of"... seems an odd distinction to make when the differing herald can't join units and no allies can join them either.

Again though, I agree with you on all points, just some poorly worded rules there.

whill4 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He doesnt need to join them, they can be a friendly unit within 12"

Would you please be so kind to provide the page and paragraph for this assertion. Thank you.

When you read Grimoire of True Names you will see it has a range. WHile that is not the exact page and ref, as I do not have my books with me, that should be sufficient for you to confirm my assertion to be correct. If you find it isnt, having checked the single entry for Grimoire of True Names, please check back here and let me know

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:

EDIT: There is also the Daemons of "alignment" vs Mark of "something". You could make the argument that because the wording on Warp Talons doesn't specifically say they are "Daemons of Tzeentch" even though they have the mark and are Daemons, they are not allowed to join any Daemon unit with "Daemons of Tzeentch" as it doesn't state that they are in the same respect as the Daemons codex.

Wait, so you're saying that even though it's painfully clear that they're both daemons in service to Tzeentch, that because of some strange wording, they wouldn't be allowed to be joined because one has the "Mark of Tzeentch" while the other is a "Daemon of Tzeentch"?

If some guy legitimately took that position, I would take the position of not playing with that guy. That's terrible rules lawyering to the umteenth degree, and I doubt any TO would back that position, so being "forced" to play against him would be incredibly unlikely.

Pretty much. like I say it's finicky because it does not specifically states they are "Daemons of Tzeentch". In the same way they are in the Daemons codex. I agree it is very harsh and if you were playing against me, I would allow it but then I have seen others who would not and they are perfectly with in rules to do so because of the way it is written.

Grimiore of true names does indeed have a 24" range and can target a friendly or enemy unit as long as the unit has at least one model with the Daemon special rule. (pg 65 Daemon Codex)

Also Cao Cao FTW!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Doesn't the rule go on to define exactly what Daemonic Alignment is?
I believe it's a lot more clear further in the rules as to who can benefit.

"Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons as the same alignment as themselves"

The argument is are warp talon talons "Daemons of Tzeentch" because they have the Daemon special rule and Mark of Tzeentch?

I'd say no because as you say 'Daemons of an alignment 'is a clear cut special rule in itself and confers more special rules on top. Having a Mark and being a Deamon does not give you the "Daemon of an alignment" ruling.

"Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons as the same alignment as themselves"

The argument is are warp talon talons "Daemons of Tzeentch" because they have the Daemon special rule and Mark of Tzeentch?

I'd say no because as you say 'Daemons of an alignment 'is a clear cut special rule in itself and confers more special rules on top. Having a Mark and being a Deamon does not give you the "Daemon of an alignment" ruling.

This is perfectly right. For example, the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (CSM) is a Daemon of Tzeentch while these are models with the daemon rule and MoT. However, my idea would work 66 percent of the time, increased to something higher with Fateys re-roll ability. The Grimoire of True Names does have a 24" range IIRC.