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The title explains it all, can Veil of Tears negate Overwatch? At first I thought absolutely not, but after re-reading the rules for Overwatch, I'm not sure. The rules for shooting Overwatch state that, except for the provision requiring all shots be snap shots, it is treated as normal firing in terms of finding range, line of sight, etc...

While this would have a relatively minor impact on game play in most circumstances due to the necessary proximity of a Harlequin unit to a charge target (making it statistically unlikely the opposing player will fail their range check), it would take on greater import when factoring in rules like the Tau's Supporting Fire (and the plethora of other special rules that will surely bolster Overwatch capabilities in the codices to come) that allow distant units take a round of Overwatch.

Your thoughts dakka? Has this already been addressed and I'm just late to the party? Enlighten me, shame me...

Why wouldn't Veil work against Overwatch?
The minimum range that can be rolled for Veil is 4", and most charges (in my experience of 6th) happen outside that distance. Admittedly it's unlikely, but as you mention very useful against Tau supporting fire.

I admit that I'm still waiting for my codex to be delivered, so I may be a bit off.

So I'll ask this instead, does VoT not refer to choosing the Harlequins as a target.

Since, at some point, the Harlequins will come into that 4" range, they will be seen. After all flamers with their template will hit a unit on a 12" charge, even though thats outside range?

Food for thought.

Cheers

Andrew

If a unit 9" away declares a charge against a unit with 8" range guns, they do not get to fire Overwatch. Overwatch is resolved immediately when the charge is declared, this matters for things like rapid fire as well. There is no equivalent of the WHFB rule where Stand and Shoot is resolved as if the unit is in range.

As to whether Overwatch "targets" for the purposes of Veil, I'd have to check that later.

As above. Range is determined when they declare the charge - given you can, with overwatch, cause a charge to fail and the models not move at all, there is no reason to think veil wouldnt work

Overwatch is a shooting attack as normal. You declare targets with shooting attacks

The problem there is it contradicts P52. Now, I know that P52 is strictly for templates, but it does kind of cause confusion.

Nos, Overwatch does not allow you to declare a target, the target has been chosen for you. I agree that this may be a problem for the supporting fire rule, but I dont agree that it would apply for the charged unit. But then again, without the new codex, and only using the last codex, I don't know how the rule has changed between editions.

Has the wording of the rule changed?

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From another thread, and a big assumption on my part, I have assumed that the rule hasn't changed. In which case I'm going out on a limb to say VoT doesn't apply to overwatch. Why? Because overwatch does not 'choose a target'.

Yes, P21 says the normal rules for shooting, but it is conspicuous that no mention is made of choosing a target, it may have been obvious that the charging unit is the one being targeted, but it doesn't say it.

Where VoT applies to units wishing to target it, overwatch must fire at it. A significant difference. Had the rule said units firing at it, then no argument, VoT would work.

If my interpretation is correct, then support fire would also immune to the effects of VoT as they fire as if they temselves weere being charged, so again no requirement to 'target' the unit.

So it boils down to does VoT refer to units targeting them or to units firing at them?

Cheers

Andrew

I do know that in the Dark Eldar FAQ Veil of Tears was changed to just giving the squad Shrouded and Stealth. So that might answer your question right there. though in other regards, i know that Harlequin can be taken by Eldar so i don't know if they got that change as well.

For those that don't know in the new eldar codex Vale of tears has returned to being a 2D6x2 range check, the only difference now is you must cast the power.

 AndrewC wrote:
If my interpretation is correct, then support fire would also immune to the effects of VoT as they fire as if they temselves weere being charged, so again no requirement to 'target' the unit.

Also, if your interpretation is correct, overwatch always fails to check range against the target unit, won't be able to roll to-hit against the target unit, or roll to-wound against the target unit, and finally there will be no target unit to roll saves or remove casualties from.

Your interpretation fails everything, not just Veil of Tears.

You really didn't follow my post did you?

As it is, based on Tri's post above yours, VoT does not refer to targetting, but a simple range check, in which case VoT does work, because range is one of the categories that must be checked for overwatch.

Cheers

Andrew