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 Lemure wrote:
I still haven't found any obvious disclaimers on that the pictures are not of prototypes or final product.

There is small lettering saying they are not “contractual” images, for what it’s worth...

I've had some interesting discussions on Facebook. Good luck to SD, but I'm not convinced - too many echoes of Rackham's last days.

gohkm wrote:
I've had some interesting discussions on Facebook. Good luck to SD, but I'm not convinced - too many echoes of Rackham's last days.

What did they say? If you can share, of course.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Lemure wrote:
I still haven't found any obvious disclaimers on that the pictures are not of prototypes or final product.

There is small lettering saying they are not “contractual” images, for what it’s worth...

Where does it say that? If I Ctrl+F I can't find it on the page. That you would write such a thing in small letters instead of just explaining it directly still seems ethically shady..

Yes, these are difinatelly not prototypes. Studio giraldez said they got resin models. So again, you are not looking at quality you will get, since they probably don't know how final product will turn out.
With the ammount of models, this will turn out 'cheaper' than CMON kickstarters price per model?, on top of that you will get hundreads of cards. Some of those models came with dozen in a blister? And all those cards in several languages...we are looking at 1000cards if not more?
Way too risky to gamble +300€, since I really don't believe they will be able to deliver quality they want you to believe you will get in the end.

But hey, if they deliver then great! I will back their new KS about new Conf if they still plan to go with that 2019.

I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:

Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?

 Lemure wrote:
I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:

Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?

All of rackham painted models were resin ones back in the day?

This attitude is really reasuring, coming from them,lol...somehow I feel glad I dodged the bullet and dropped the pledge

 Lemure wrote:
I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:

Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?

Oh lord, this might be one of the dangest things I've read in a long while. If they honestly can't see that there is a difference between resin/metal and resin/pvc then I've even got less faith in them. And if they do see the difference, but pretend there is none, well, none the better. So either way, with a reply like that my concerns are only increased.

 Lemure wrote:
I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:

Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?

Sounds like they're butthurt.
Maybe too many people asking for the exact kind of material, production process and production prototypes?

This sounds worse and worse.
I think lots of people will be disappointed with this, there're guys on Kickstarter that defend them because they have been publishing books since 2008 but can't see a difference between publishing books and publishing miniatures.

I'm gonna stick with 1€ so I can receive their updates for the next few years.

As much as I'd love to get my hands on some Rackham stuff, this KS is looking hella fishy, with nothing to show to back it up either. It's hard not to side with everyone else's suspicions. I'll bide my time on this one for now, but things are not holding up well.

 smurfORnot wrote:

 Lemure wrote:
I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:

Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?

All of rackham painted models were resin ones back in the day?

This attitude is really reasuring, coming from them,lol...somehow I feel glad I dodged the bullet and dropped the pledge

Yes they were. They paint them up while waiting for the final molds, but due to the small difference between the high quality metal mini's they made and the resin it'd be hard to spot the difference. Incomparable to using images of resin miniatures that were turned into metal that are 3D-scanned, altered and then made in PVC. Their stance on this is clear, they have no intention of being open about it:

"Well in fact it's how is working the whole industry. .... Basicaly the whole industry is lying. Do all the other editors tell they are showing resin casted minis ? (I think you know the anwser)"

Too bad, love the miniatures and wish they'd be more easily available.

The miniature above is either metal or resin. I have both versions.

The minis in the pictures of Rackham were Resin and metal, depending on when they were needed. But the difference is very small between them. Rackham could get a miniature in 30 days from sketch to mould at its best times.

I just got some calculations in from friends working for the factories that can do such miniatures. The tooling alone would cost around 1 million, that´s not production, shipping, printing of the cards in five languages etc. calculated in.
I will just let it sink in...

 Lemure wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Lemure wrote:
I still haven't found any obvious disclaimers on that the pictures are not of prototypes or final product.

There is small lettering saying they are not “contractual” images, for what it’s worth...

Where does it say that? If I Ctrl+F I can't find it on the page. That you would write such a thing in small letters instead of just explaining it directly still seems ethically shady..

It’s in small print in the images themselves.

Hm. Ludik Bazar and Sans Detour share the same address, looks like the same company. Anyone knows more?

Cause Ludik seems in no good shape, judging from experiences of customers in the net.

OK, that is not good news.

 Mysterio wrote:
OK, that is not good news.

They have been planning this for over a year and they just said they wouldn't touch the rulebook because it would take too much time. That's hobbyist level stuff right there. Nothing about this project screams "good news".

Good work, Duncan!

fwiw, Here's their FB page. References to Confrontation and SD, as well as other games. It's entirely possible that SD is just a division of LB, to separate publication distribution from miniatures production. But that still doesn't mean SD/LB has an experience in a miniatures KS. I hope Dakkanauts who speak French can do a better job of tracking down these people! (EDIT: Found another of their FB pages?)

https://www.facebook.com/Ludikbazar-324260259884/
https://www.facebook.com/ludikbazar2

SD's Twitter feed. https://twitter.com/EdSansDetour
One of the posts says they've been around 10 years. But I'm still not seeing any miniatures production. Everything I'm seeing is either a storefront or distribution (?).

Joss, in the comments, says they're preparing a statement about the plastic.

Really, the way SD is handling this vs., say, Fireball Island or even Hellboy on BGG is night and day. No idea why it's not obvious, but if you can't give potential customers enough information to part with over $400, they won't give it to you!

****

Terrain posted on FB! Not Contractual Picture!

(Wonder what the card and rules translation will be like...)

Well, one good thing to come from this is all the Rackham miniatures I still have in shrink wrap or blister are now worth a hell of a lot more to people looking for an alternative to this.

I might go looking to see how much I can get for my Titan Dragon and Mid-Nor Court of the Abyss boxes...

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Well, one good thing to come from this is all the Rackham miniatures I still have in shrink wrap or blister are now worth a hell of a lot more to people looking for an alternative to this.

I might go looking to see how much I can get for my Titan Dragon and Mid-Nor Court of the Abyss boxes...

You're...not wrong!

I know I'd be interested in any Dwarves, Wolfen and Dirz you're selling!

As for this one here, well, I like the terrain.

I hope it gets made too, someday.

Huh. Just stumbled across the Confrontation KS, and backed it for one <unit of currency>

Lots of folks here sounding skeptical, but it's already blown past its goal, and closing in on $800,000. I didn't realize this game was so popular!

Some of the minis are cool looking, so I'll pick and choose. Not keen on rather silly $300+ pledge (the only option? Really?), and am rather surprised it's doing so well given the high barrier to entry!


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PS And this looks like the only Confrontation thread now in the News & Rumors section - I presume this is where we talk (bitch and moan?) about the KS, eh?

It is actually stagnating around 620 for the whole day. and it did make its goal, but as usual this is not what would be needed to pay for the tooling and production. They still will need more.

SD lengthened the 12 hour SG to 24 hours, suggesting that EB's were not picked up as quickly as they though they'd be.

Remember that the KS goal is not necessarily (and usually lower than) the actual amount of money necessary to fund the project.

I guess I'm just killing time until the Solomon Kane KS starts...

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Hm. Ludik Bazar and Sans Detour share the same address, looks like the same company. Anyone knows more?

Cause Ludik seems in no good shape, judging from experiences of customers in the net.

Piotr BOROWSKI owns both Ludik Bazar and Sans Detour but they are two separate companies (or at least it's what they say).


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ced1106 wrote:
SD lengthened the 12 hour SG to 24 hours, suggesting that EB's were not picked up as quickly as they though they'd be.

Which is fun as they also said in the comment section that the support from the backers has been bigger than what they hoped for.

You can add Stellar to the two companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is it just me who gets a headache figuring out how those companies are connected with each other?

https://www.wayofgamers.fr/qui-sommes-nous

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
You can add Stellar to the two companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is it just me who gets a headache figuring out how those companies are connected with each other?

https://www.wayofgamers.fr/qui-sommes-nous

I didn't even need to click the link to get a headache!

SD looks to be a company of 3-5 employees. Still finding info of them publishing books, not creating miniatures. : https://french-corporate.com/french-corporate.v6.php?siren=504290206-sans-detour-14-rue-victor-hugo-01100-oyonnax

Call of Cthulhu French edition interview, identifying three of the employees. : https://cthulhureborn.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/state-of-the-tentacle-sans-detour/

Way of Gamers is a crowdfunding platform published by SMART TRADING DIFFUSION, registered in the ORIAS register as an intermediary in crowdfunding (IFP) under the registration number 16001172. ... For more than 3 years, SMART TRADING DIFFUSION has been involved in corporate advisory services, particularly in the Administration and Finance Department, and more specifically in the Game Board sector, including crowdfunding operations (Editions SANS-DETOUR, Ludikbazar). , Ludibay).

I only found one project there, about a Lovecraft comic book or something?? I'm not familiar with France's crowdsourcing.

I couldn't find more info about Stellar, other than Joss' KS comment.

@thierry weigman We won't disclose the contracts we sent but yes, we contacted Nicolas, Jérome, Martin... And if you think you have legal issues to deal with the owner of the licence, feel free to contact Stellar Licencing. That's the only thing I can advise you to do.

We're still waiting on what plastic will be used. And here's an apt comment from the KS. "At PK's suggestion, I reread the risks & challenges. This is my favourite line: "We have a very clear communication plan and an excellent media relaying. " They've been so clear they're practically invisible."

Glad people were able to figure out that Ludikbazar is connected, as they've been having financial problems for quite some time.

This is the last two emails I received from them, translated by Google Translate -


18th March, 2018

"Hello everyone,

Here is a great adventure that has lasted fifteen years already, the ebay account was launched in March 2003 and the ludikbazar site at the end of 2004. When you carry out an activity such as e-commerce for more than fifteen years you learn to put a lot of things into perspective and to know ups and downs.

It's been several years since the activity became complicated, it is indeed difficult to survive in our field facing large structures such as amazon or philibert, my philosophy had always been to be close to our customers, to be fun while offering games as specialized as possible and continuing to make the opportunity (my hobby I was a collector well before launching ludikbazar) without necessarily entering a model too economic and dehumanized.

I think that the rationality of the market, the search for the price and the instantaneity requested by the customers have triumphed, it is necessary to go to the evidence it is no longer really possible for companies on a human scale like us (nine people) to survive on the new home market and the investments that would be required to stay in the race against the big players far outweigh our financial capabilities.

Our real concerns started in December 2017. What was our fault? not being able to order at Asmodée from mid-December for lack of cash (we pay in advance orders and sales on the marketplaces are that we are paid off, so the more we sell more we have to get out of money advanced). Suddenly this has led to delays on shipments and malfunctions. In the past Christmas time Asmodée society has already played the game and helped us by leaving us time, but not this time. So we had to cut hundreds of thousands of euros in turnover because we could not order the products. Situation rather ubiquitous but we will not be the first to risk dying for lack of managing seasonal variations.

I think that in fifteen years of entrepreneurship in many activities I have never seen such a torrent of violence and hatred spilled, threats, paypal blockages, mails and hate calls for delays in orders or missing products. a value often well below five euros. I completely understand the nerves of customers and our shortcomings, the whole team struggled (accounting included) so that the delay of sending parcels is filled on January, then Cédric my partner has caught up with the hundreds of late emails and we processed hundreds of sav to arrive today at a pretty stable situation with still some pre-order products to catch up. But our situation is not better, the team has struggled through this period and many people have left us unable to withstand this pressure and permanent daily. Our offer has melted and our turnover with.

We are bloodless both financially and psychologically. It's not a call for help or a need for psychological support it's just a fact and I think after fifteen years of doing this job and having personally discussed and exchanged with thousands among you, I can authorize myself to write it publicly and modestly.

But then, the future?

We have an opportunity in two months to reinvent ourselves to a new model, until we have to hold this period, pay our employees, our expenses and our rent. It is not obvious but it is possible.

We are seriously thinking of going back to our first love and what was the strength of our sites, the opportunity and the work with individuals. The new home market no longer supports diversity and we willingly give way to almost a single supplier and very soon a single reseller of games on the web, the dice are thrown at this stage and no major player in our community wants a plurality of the offer on the market. We do not have the size to fight against this inevitable trend.

What do we need to survive and try to reinvent ourselves?

In all transparency, we need to liquidate our stock to find a few tens of thousands of euros in cash and continue our business of buying and selling used products.

If you want to help us or support us?

We will not ask you to help us financially but we offer as always a win-win, take advantage of our operation of the moment, each order placed will allow us to recover some cash on our stock and give us the time we need to revive our business.

In the same way we wish to extend our second-hand activity to other domains, and here too we propose an interesting model:

We are interested in buying all the cultural products you do not want anymore: games, books, novels, bds, manga, comics, video games, consoles, collections products, figurines, coins, vinyl records, cds, dvds, computer equipment, goodies etc ...

This activity is different from the one we practice on the occasion, the idea is that you send in bulk products you do not want anymore and do not want to deal with the resale, for lack of time or because it would not be worth it the shot for you. We will take care of estimating the resale value, store and list your products and then we will pay back 20% of the resale price of the products. Of course, this will be especially interesting for things that are not interesting anymore or that seem complicated to estimate, manage. For games we continue (with a little delay this week) to establish usual estimates.

If you wish to offer us products, send an email on piotr@sans-detour.com"


29th March, 2018
"Hello everyone,

Here again is the opportunity to communicate to you, but not with good news.
First of all, I would like to thank all those who sent us messages of support and took part in the destocking operation last week, and also sorry for the pre-order mess.

Things have rushed since and our difficulties have not stopped, quite the contrary.
From the beginning I made the choice to communicate as transparently as possible about our difficulties and despite the consequences that it may have had I always think that we were right to do, a TPE remains a human adventure and that- It lasted for fifteen years, whether for me or Cédric de ludibay. You have been more than 100,000 to order on our sites from the beginning and even more on the marketplaces, we have sold millions of games and processed up to 20 000 orders per month, it's not nothing and we are very proud.

We are doing a destocking operation, it will probably be the last we do, this operation will last until stocks are exhausted.
At this point we arrive at the end of the month and have to deal with our most urgent regulations.

It is with a heavy heart that I think we have arrived at the end of this adventure, sadly because we have identified a lot of growth drivers and a new economic model that has shown great results, but without funding or sufficient resources we do not could put it in place.

We envisage the sale of our websites and our assets, we invite all those interested in a resumption of the activity whether by a direct or community approach to contact me on piotr@ludikbazar.com, all solutions are possible even the resale of a single site.

In the meantime take advantage of our latest offers and products that we have, we may put some products on sale as and when our inventory. We hope to be able to ship the latest orders on hold in order to have a situation as clean and simple as possible, as well as disable the virtual products remaining on our site.

We will continue to be active and look forward to the opportunity of either a buyer or the event we talked to you a few days ago."

They had been talking about their cash flow and business problems for quite a while, and their facebook page does seem to have a fair few complaints about orders not being fulfilled. I am even more concerned about this than I was before.

OUCH!

I see a lot of blue-eyed business-decisions there and many problems.

Good work, Duncan and Fenriswolf!

Well, that's another IP wasted. So far, only Mantic, Monolith, and possibly Mythic I can trust.

I am tempted pledging for it and asking some of the questions that I would want to be answered by every KS-Team. But probably I wont get satisfactory answers...