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So I've decided to get into Flames of War as it seems like a great wargame with an active community. I have a couple quick questions!

1. Are all lists useable in FoW V3? If I want to field a german tank company can I use Grey Wolf still? Earth and Steel? Am I stuck with the "Panzers to the Meuse" PDF? I'm not 100% but some seem like lists from older versions of the rules to me.

2. Am I looking in the right places for tank companies? I'm honestly pretty overwhelmed by the sheer number of books.

3. StuGs and Tigers: Is there a list that will let me field both of these? I've been stumbling through a few lists but I have been having trouble finding one that will let me field both StuGs and Tigers. I would like to be able to use StuGs, Panzer IV, and Tiger tanks based on the models I have available.

Thanks!

1) Yes, all lists should still be usable. They may have gotten better or worse but they're still usable. Otherwise all lists would be invalidated.

2) Where have you looked?

3) StuGs and Tigers are often in Company or Platoon support. Cobra has three different infantry companys that can have one Heavy SS tank platoon and 2 platoons with choice of assault gun or panzer platoons. So basically one platoon of each. Of course you'd be running Panzer Grenadiers or Pioneers instead of a tank company.

There is a list in Grey Wolf where you can take StuGs and Tigers - Stugbatterie, StuGs are your primary force and Tigers are there to support yous StuGs.

Grey Templar wrote:1) Yes, all lists should still be usable. They may have gotten better or worse but they're still usable. Otherwise all lists would be invalidated.

Thanks, glad to hear it.

Grey Templar wrote:2) Where have you looked?

Grey Wolf and Earth & Steel mostly.

Grey Templar wrote:3) StuGs and Tigers are often in Company or Platoon support. Cobra has three different infantry companys that can have one Heavy SS tank platoon and 2 platoons with choice of assault gun or panzer platoons. So basically one platoon of each. Of course you'd be running Panzer Grenadiers or Pioneers instead of a tank company.

I'll check out Cobra. I'm not opposed to taking a few panzergrenadiers.

Halkomahooli wrote:There is a list in Grey Wolf where you can take StuGs and Tigers - Stugbatterie, StuGs are your primary force and Tigers are there to support yous StuGs.

Thanks, I'll check that out too. I don't suppose that Stugbatterie can take heavier tanks too?

Are Stugbatteries where your main fighting force just StuGs good? I love that tank design but I don't really have enough tactical knowhow of the rules to know if I can take a fairly homogeneous tank company and still succeed. If I just took like 15 Panzer IV or 15 StuGs would I be crippling my list?

tanks with hull mounted guns aren't a huge disadvantage unless you are getting flanked and want to maintain facing.


The lists in Cobra are decent. And all are mechanized. its either Gepanzerte SS-panzer grenadiers in Sd Kfz 251/1 half-tracks, SS-Panzer Grenadiers in optional 3-ton trucks, or SS-Panzer Pioneers in Sd Kfz 251/1 half-tracks.

Fairly standard infantry with 2 stands per squad. So 7 stands in a full size platoon. All are MG teams.

I would avoid cobra as the briefings have been placed initially in earth and steel - and now Atlantik wall

If you like StuG's then go for the list from grey wolf, if you like panzer 4's try piepers list from 'devils charge' or Panzers to the Meuse

Grey Wolf, Atlantik Wall, and the Panzers Meuse PDF are probably you best choices to look at.

I wouldn't recommend starting out with Panzers. They are iconic and they have access to shiny toys but they are a finese army (to an extent).

They have a low model count so losses hurt but they also have significant weaknesses (artillery, air and dug in infantry) which can cause a lot of problems on the table.

I started out with a Mittlerpanzer kompanie and I get hammered for at least my first 10 games and while it was a valuable learning experience it wasn't a very enjoyable introduction to the game.. I would suggest starting out with Grenadiers instead, more to buy and paint but you can still use StuGs and Tigers excpet this time you will have a soild infantry backbone.

What about the 17th SS free pdf? I has a all Stug company for PAnzers.I have been running the list here lately and it has been doing pretty good.Help me get two wins in in the Overlord campaign.

Grey Templar wrote:tanks with hull mounted guns aren't a huge disadvantage unless you are getting flanked and want to maintain facing.

The lists in Cobra are decent. And all are mechanized. its either Gepanzerte SS-panzer grenadiers in Sd Kfz 251/1 half-tracks, SS-Panzer Grenadiers in optional 3-ton trucks, or SS-Panzer Pioneers in Sd Kfz 251/1 half-tracks.

Fairly standard infantry with 2 stands per squad. So 7 stands in a full size platoon. All are MG teams.

Thanks for the advice, yeah I figured that the fixed guns wouldn't be such a bad thing particularly as the front firing arc looks a lot stronger than in 40k.

Reaver83 wrote:I would avoid cobra as the briefings have been placed initially in earth and steel - and now Atlantik wall

If you like StuG's then go for the list from grey wolf, if you like panzer 4's try piepers list from 'devils charge' or Panzers to the Meuse

I'll have to run down to my game store and check out Atlantik Wall, my primary opponent should be playing some sort of american force around normandy. If I like the way the lists work in Earth & Steel I should probably get Atlantik Wall then, right? Earth and Steel is available on Army Builder and Easy Army I believe but Atlantik Wall aint.

AndrasOtto wrote:Grey Wolf, Atlantik Wall, and the Panzers Meuse PDF are probably you best choices to look at.

I've been checking those out and they do indeed seem like good options, particularly it looks like Grey Wolf has access to heavy panzer units which I would be most interested in. I suppose historically there isn't much precedent for Tigers on the western front?

Palindrome wrote:I wouldn't recommend starting out with Panzers. They are iconic and they have access to shiny toys but they are a finese army (to an extent).

They have a low model count so losses hurt but they also have significant weaknesses (artillery, air and dug in infantry) which can cause a lot of problems on the table.

I started out with a Mittlerpanzer kompanie and I get hammered for at least my first 10 games and while it was a valuable learning experience it wasn't a very enjoyable introduction to the game.. I would suggest starting out with Grenadiers instead, more to buy and paint but you can still use StuGs and Tigers excpet this time you will have a soild infantry backbone.

I'm going to be learning against a beginner as well so I'm not too worried about getting roughed up too much. We're both pretty casual wargamers. He probably will be running a lot of artillery and infantry though, he is a fan of the US airborne divisions.

If I go with panzerkompanie or panzergrenadierkompanie either way I intend to take some mechanized infantry and some tanks. The ease of assembly and painting of tanks vs the tiny detail of infantry also appeals to me, so I could hit the ground faster and add more infantry if I find I'm too handicapped.

col. krazy kenny wrote:What about the 17th SS free pdf? I has a all Stug company for PAnzers.I have been running the list here lately and it has been doing pretty good.Help me get two wins in in the Overlord campaign.

Thanks I'll check that out too, all StuG would be awesome but I'd like to get some variety in there too.


I've actually come up with a basic list from the V3 rulebook using EasyArmy.com, am I covering all the necessary bases? My logic is:
-Panzer IV are cheap enough and with small unit sizes I still have lots of room for the rest of the list
-Solo Tiger 1E has a lot of cool factor and is relatively inexpensive so I'm not eating up all my points like a Panther squad of 3 would
-StuH42 is more effective against dug in infantry if I understand the rules correctly and would help me out in that area
-7 stands of mechanized infantry are pretty inexpensive and can do infantry stuff. I note that they are a 230p squad without panzerfausts unlike the 285p gepanzerte panzergrenadiers from Earth & Steel which have them. Is one version more desirable than the other?
-2 cheap 8 rads can drive around preventing ambushes and identifying dug in enemies like infantry so I can take them out
-a relatively cheap 3 Wespe artillery unit gives me smoke and whatever other stuff artillery is good at

The only thing I note is that I have 8 platoons? Does this present a significant weakness in that it might be very easy for my opponent to take out 2 platoons which reduces your level of victory?

Panzerkompanie (Heer) (Tank Company) 1780p

Panzerkompanie HQ, 2x Panzer IV H - 180p
Panzer Platoon, 3x Panzer IV H - 270p
Panzer Platoon, 3x Panzer IV H - 270p
Heavy Tank Platoon, 1x Tiger 1E - 215p
Assault Gun Platoon, 3x StuH42 - 285p
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon - 230p
-command panzerfaust SMG, sd kfz 251/10
-6x MG team, 3x sd kfz 251/1
Panzerspäh Patrol, 2x sd kfz 231 (8-rad) - 80p
Armored Artillery Battery - 235p
-command SMG team, staff team, field car, radio truck
-3x Wespe, observer rifles, sd kfz 250

StuH42 is more effective against dug in infantry if I understand the rules correctly and would help me out in that area

This is true, but also do not forget that the 10.5cm gun on the StuH42 can fire direct-smoke as well which can help "screen" your advance and somewhat "blind" enemy infantry before an assault. I typically use 1 StuH42 in a platoon of 3 StuG G/IV's so that I can retain the AT ability with them while also using it as a utility vehicle against infantry and dug-in troops.

The only thing I note is that I have 8 platoons? Does this present a significant weakness in that it might be very easy for my opponent to take out 2 platoons which reduces your level of victory?

I find an even number of platoons is helpful due to missions that typically have half or at-least half your forces in reserve, which means it is an easier time of deploying units that you would want out there depending on the mission. With odd-numbered platoons, it can be a decision issue of what you need to deploy first, etc.

I've been checking those out and they do indeed seem like good options, particularly it looks like Grey Wolf has access to heavy panzer units which I would be most interested in. I suppose historically there isn't much precedent for Tigers on the western front?

There is actually; in Atlantik Wall you can run the 101 SS Schwere Panzerabteilung (Whitman's unit) or the 503 Schwere Panzerabteilung, which had a mix of Tiger I E's and Königstigers.

Panzerkompanie (Heer) (Tank Company) 1780p

Panzerkompanie HQ, 2x Panzer IV H - 180p
Panzer Platoon, 3x Panzer IV H - 270p
Panzer Platoon, 3x Panzer IV H - 270p
Heavy Tank Platoon, 1x Tiger 1E - 215p
Assault Gun Platoon, 3x StuH42 - 285p
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon - 230p
-command panzerfaust SMG, sd kfz 251/10
-6x MG team, 3x sd kfz 251/1
Panzerspäh Patrol, 2x sd kfz 231 (8-rad) - 80p
Armored Artillery Battery - 235p
-command SMG team, staff team, field car, radio truck
-3x Wespe, observer rifles, sd kfz 250

Nice list. You have infantry and artillery support and plenty of smoke pieces in-play, plus recon and a good number of hulls. The only thing lacking is AA. I find that AA, especially on the Western Front is kind of a must since the Allies have so much air at their beck-and-call. However, terrain can help mitigate this some depending on your board layout. You may find that artillery may not be so crucial in a armor list. Since you'll be attacking in most missions anyway and pretty much be spearing through the enemy every chance you get to capture the objectives. Your StuH42's have direct-fire smoke capability plus when paired with your Panzer IV's, will make for a heavy infantry-assault combo.

Dan "Panzer" Larson the FoW site forums has some good advice on running German Panzer lists and he's run everything from 7-tank-Panther lists with minimal AA to the Panzer IV swarm, so he's a decent resource there. Lots of variables to play with when running an armor list which is why I thoroughly enjoy this game.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to get my hands on Atlantik Wall in person as it isn't in any online resources.

If my StuH42 can provide smoke, could I do without Artillery or is it too valuable to give up indirect firepower? I'm not super in love with the artillery battery.

The options that I see for replacing it would be two 8.8cm FlaK36 with maxed out crew, or two more panzers, or another tiger. I'm not certain I would end up fighting air forces but the anti-tank of 13 at 40" seems quite good on its own merits.

IIRC the platoon has the ability to fire a bombardment like artillery, so they could do smoke duties as well as actual offensive bombardments.

And yes, 88s provide excellent anti-tank as well as anti-air.


One you may consider are Nebelwherfers. They provide good smoke as well as anti-infantry bombardments. Plus they are pretty cheap.

If my StuH42 can provide smoke, could I do without Artillery or is it too valuable to give up indirect firepower? I'm not super in love with the artillery battery.

Yes you could, but it's still direct-fire only, so you have to prioritize the main threat you need to "blind" with that StuH42 platoon. Since you have three vehicles in the platoon that can do that, that's potentiality 3 smoke markers on 3 different units that you can draw LOS to within range. Rocket Launcher batteries such as the Nebelwerfer 41's or the Armored NW42's are good at providing smoke-bombardments and are most effective, especially if you can increase the template of the smoke marker with more tubes/crew.

The options that I see for replacing it would be two 8.8cm FlaK36 with maxed out crew, or two more panzers, or another tiger. I'm not certain I would end up fighting air forces but the anti-tank of 13 at 40" seems quite good on its own merits.

Definitely an option as the FlaK36 guns have decent range and can sit in concealing terrain , sniping away at other armored threats.

Grey Templar wrote:IIRC the platoon has the ability to fire a bombardment like artillery, so they could do smoke duties as well as actual offensive bombardments.

One you may consider are Nebelwerfers. They provide good smoke as well as anti-infantry bombardments. Plus they are pretty cheap.

The Nebs are the typical default choice for cheap, effective smoke bombardments and you can't go wrong with them. They'll free up points to allow you take an extra hull or beef up the crew on the FlaK36's and/or add transport options. Maybe even upgrade the GepPanzergrenadiers to GepPanzerPioneers if you have assault engineers as an option in the list...?

Nebs seem cool, unfortunately the list I'm using which seems to be the only one able to take both StuGs in a panzerkompanie and a single Tiger I, does not have access to rockets of any kind. I also do not have access to pioneers in this list.

For reference, the V3 forces list:

Ok, then I'd go with the Flak36's since you're using the Forces list.

Think it would come up the with following considering your points area;

HQ - 1x CIC Panzer IVH, 1x 2iC Panzer IVH (180 pts)

1x Command Panzer IVH, 2x Panzer IVH (270 pts)
1x Command Panzer IVH, 2x Panzer IVH (270 pts)

Heavy Tank Platoon - 1x Command Tiger I E, 1x Tiger I E (430 pts)

Assault Gun Platoon - 1x Command StuH 42, 2x StuH 42 (285 pts)

Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon - 1x Command MG, 1x Sd Kfz 251/10, 6x MG, 3x Sd Kfz 251/1 (220 pts)
1x Replace Command MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (10 pts)

Panzerspah Patrol - 1x Command Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad), 1x Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad) (80 pts)

Heavy Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon - 1x Command SMG, 2x 8.8cm FlaK 36 gun (160 pts)
2x Extra Crew (20 pts)
1x Kfz 15 field Car, 1x Sd Kfz 7 (8t) half-track per gun (5 pts)


1930 Points, 7 Platoons

It's not quite 2k, but I'm figuring you're using the models you actually have, so I just worked in an extra Tiger after adding the FlaK36's.

Yep, that is my list exactly with one extra Tiger 1E. The list I wrote uses just one Tiger (total 1715p) to fit in the somewhat arbitrary 1780p points limit.

I feel pretty comfortable with this as a starting list with which to learn the game.

Every Year the flames of War point totals change to keep changing things up and yes it is arbitrary but good as it gets new forces on the field so its not the same stuff every year.

For this year I know the new totals are:

1725 for Late War
1485 for Mid War
1500? for Early War - not 100% on this total.

chaos45 wrote:
Every Year the flames of War point totals change to keep changing things up and yes it is arbitrary but good as it gets new forces on the field so its not the same stuff every year.

For this year I know the new totals are:

1725 for Late War
1485 for Mid War
1500? for Early War - not 100% on this total.

Interesting, as it appears MW went down? Typically it has been 1500, although I did play a tourney at Millennium Con in Austin that had MW at 1675.

Currently, LW is 1780, and I have no idea how EW is listed.

Yep, that is my list exactly with one extra Tiger 1E. The list I wrote uses just one Tiger (total 1715p) to fit in the somewhat arbitrary 1780p points limit.

I feel pretty comfortable with this as a starting list with which to learn the game.

Agreed; you have a little bit of everything to jump right in to learn the Steps (aka phases in 40k) and get a feel for it.

Nope new LW is 1725

US LW Nationals just finished last weekend I guess is the Canadian nationals this coming weekend at 1780 but pretty much everyone is moving to the new tournament years totals from here on out as all of the US Nationals events are finished.

Also EW is 1525

chaos45 wrote:
Nope new LW is 1725

Not according to Battle Front.

My other FoW-noob friend and I will be playing 1780, at least until we learn enough to be in a tournament situation where there are other restrictions.

For those vets who helped with list feedback, I re-read the anti-air rules and realized that "heavy anti air" actually means "bad at anti air"

Taking out the 88s, I managed to fill the extra points I had left and ended up with:

HQ: 2x Panzer IV H 180p
Combat: 3x Panzer IV H 270p
Combat: 3x Panzer IV H 270p
Weapons: Panzer AA, 2x Armoured Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm) 100p
Div Support: 1x Tiger 1E 215p
Div Support: 4x StuH 42 380p
Div Support: 7 stand Panzergrenadiers, no upgrades 220p
Div Support: Recon, 3x Panzer II L Luchs 145p

1780p exactly

8 platoons, better anti air, worse anti tank though I have that in droves, still have smoke, a fourth StuH 42, extra anti infantry in a pinch from the AA, slightly tougher recon and 3 models to potentially remove concealment from 3 enemies or just put out some anti infantry/flanked tank destroyer firepower.

Don't know how much more pre-play flames planning I can do but this seems good to me and thanks for the help all!