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I figure that if anything should be able to reach 5 HP in Warhammer 40k, it should be the masivve pyramid made of living metal that is the monolith.
I kindof like the option to get a "cheap" AV14 all arround Monolith at 200pts but the monolith used to be the toughest vehicule on the board and got seriously nerfed.
I get it that the immune to melta and lance was a bit too strong but how about this:
40pts upgrade: Monolith gets 5HP and any weapon that rolls 2 dices, weapons with lance and str10 Hits all have a -1 to their Strength

also on the vehicule front I figure the Dark Eldars Raider should have 11 of carying capacity, not 10, this would allow 5 grotesque to climb aboard with a haemy and maybe adding an extra haemonculi or archon to a pack of 10 Wracks. maybe for a 5pts upgrade but maybe they can have it for free.

what do you guys think?

Now that's too much, 5HP or -1S to those weapons would be fine with me.

Thought Grotesques took up 3 spaces in a transport. If so how come you're getting 5 in a Raider even with 11 spaces?

Hull points are irrelevant to making a Monolith tougher. The things that kill it now kill it without regard to its number of hull points.

Minus three to pen with Melta weapons, chainfists, etc? Means the Monolith isn't invincible to them, but is tougher than most things out there - as it should be IMO.

A melta averages 15 to pen (average roll on 2D6 of 7, +8 strength.) However, it would now average 12 (2D6 for 7, -3, +S8 = 12), but would still be able to penetrate on a good roll.

Alternatively, reduce the damage table to a flat roll for AP1 or 2 weapons, instead of +2/1 respectively, or limit it to a +1.

Give it "It will not die" for it's living metal thing.

Grotesque are bulky, not very bulky

it will not die sounds cool for the monlith and does feel right for living metal.

-3 is way overkill for the meltas and lance weapons, I figure leaving it on a 5+ for Bright/Dark Lances and Str 10 hits instead of 4+ and making it require a good roll (8+ on 2d6 instead of 7+) for the melta weapons to reach a penetrating hit, melta need to be within half range with short range already to get 2d6 so if they got within 6" of it then they deserve to do decent damage on it.

to implement the -3 to str it would have to be a 100-150pt upgrade so not worth it I think.

hull points would become much more relevant with the str lowering option since its going to be harder to get a pen hit with that on.

if the lith isn't exploded, it should have a 6+ it's back with 1 HP, all weapon destroyed etc still apply. it just went down for a turn to fix its vitals. it should also still function as a portal, but with dangerous terrain tests for the guys using it.

It will not die sounds like a good upgrade.

It doesn't need more HP i think. Maybe something like blessed hull like black templars where lance doesn't work on it, but meltas still work.

The ignores crew shaken/stunned roll is pretty good atm anyways, it still lets you fire the particle whip .

If anything it needs to be made an assault vehicle

and d6+1 range on the portal. You know how many times i have rolled a 1 for the range on that thing.

I never really liked options that really help you against some armies but doesnt do anything at all against others, the ignore lance but not melta does that.
I would much prefer the minus 1 str on the heavy Anti vehicules weapon than minus 2 str on only lance weapons.

The eldar have that downgrade pens to glances thing. Would that suit a monolith?

DOOMONYOU wrote:
The eldar have that downgrade pens to glances thing. Would that suit a monolith?

sort of, i'd even say that the eldar skimmers are more dangerous than the monolith now, what with their speed, pens to glances and being a transport. i think a 2+ pens to glances would make a monolith a lot more viable.

some bloke wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
The eldar have that downgrade pens to glances thing. Would that suit a monolith?

sort of, i'd even say that the eldar skimmers are more dangerous than the monolith now, what with their speed, pens to glances and being a transport. i think a 2+ pens to glances would make a monolith a lot more viable.

And by viable you mean horribly overpowered.

You don't have to upgrade to make viable, you can also adjust points to a more reasonable level, if the points at all needs adjusting. Also keep in mind that even if army X have it easy killing something armies Y, Z and A have to be able to kill it for a reasonable investment as well. I know, hilarious to say this in a 40k thread, but if you at all treat it like a game than a "push your hobby miniatures around on a table making gunfire noises" kind of thing, then you have to consider that as well.

some bloke wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
The eldar have that downgrade pens to glances thing. Would that suit a monolith?

sort of, i'd even say that the eldar skimmers are more dangerous than the monolith now, what with their speed, pens to glances and being a transport. i think a 2+ pens to glances would make a monolith a lot more viable.

And the Eldar transport has to choose between the shield and one of the best guns the Eldar have access to, can't have both.

I think the monolith is well pointed right now, its just not tough enough, which is why I would like something to make it tougher at an increase in points, the monolith is suppose to be like one of those cubes in star trek, capable of still doing its thing even if it has 80% of itself destroyed.

I also dont want it to have a great protection against certain armies but nothing against others (ex : immune to melta but nothing against lance)

my original option still seems pretty good :
anything that rolls 2 dices for armor penetration, weapons with lance or Str10 hits reduce their Strength by one.
maybe add it will not die and even maybe a 4+ change penetrating hits to a glancing could be good.
all for a 60 or maybe 50 pts increase

how does this sound?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

some bloke wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
The eldar have that downgrade pens to glances thing. Would that suit a monolith?

sort of, i'd even say that the eldar skimmers are more dangerous than the monolith now, what with their speed, pens to glances and being a transport. i think a 2+ pens to glances would make a monolith a lot more viable.

And by viable you mean horribly overpowered.

Eh, not really, they still don't pack all that much dakka.

Honestly, just have it be -1 str to any hits allocated to it. The upgrade can be 40 points. s10 ordnance will have a 50% chance to pen instead of 75%, melta, s8 armorbane, s10, and lance will have 16% less chance to pen. Haywire would still be an issue.

This is not overpowering, like -3 to pen for meltas, which would leave Tau unable to do much of anything, or most of the SM codexes for that matter.

It would take, to my calculations, 8 Longstrikes to kill a single Monolith with that one simple rule. One in every 4 would get a pen, of which 1/2 would score a kill. At bs4, it would take about 6 meltaguns to down one, as opposed to approximately 4.5. Lances would take 18 to kill it as opposed to 12, unless you get a good pen that kills it instead of hullpointing it out.

For a slight increase in cost, you gain some pretty solid protection. At the least, it'd make triple-monolith lists pretty dang tough.

if your gonna just make all hits be -1 str might as well just make the monolith itself AV 15 since thats exactly what it equates to.

and doing just that would not be worth 40 pts, people wouldnt really use it as meltas will still kill it relatively easily. paying 40pts is expensive for something that wont do much vs half the armies you might face since most armies have access to meltas.

I'd go for a flat -1 to the damage tables myself - it means that serious anti-tank is needed to blow it up, impact-based weapons (like the tyrannofexes gun) would at most be able to immobilise it. living metal would confer 'it will not die'. it'll still fall to anything that really kills tanks, but lascannons would need a 6 to explode it, meltas would need a 5+ not a 4+. as far as my experience goes, this is what's caused monoliths to become so much weaker, the big guns that used to kill them are doing so much more efficiently.

obviously the points would need increasing for this, but it'd certainly make it more viable. it also needs to reduce scatter/move models out of the way like it used to when deepstriking.

I do like that idea, would also like to add a little bit more difficulty to reach the pen/glance hit though, maybe make it have stealth too both for like 30pts seems about right
what do you guys think

Give it living metal and immunity to Lance and be done. True to fluff, harder to kill, uncomplicated. Necrons are already a competitive army, let's not go all crazy.

1. Melta in half range will auto blow it up

2. Eternal gate is a gimmik weapon that rarely gets close enough

3. Change to deep striking means its too big to drop anywhere safely but your deployment zone

4. Moving models through the gate is pretty cool but not being able to assault is a big draw back

5. It's particle whip is really only a "decent" weapon. Most things get cover saves these days

IMO If they negated the benefit's of melta it would be worth taking, it still would not be as competitive as an AB but I would field it more in friendly games.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
if your gonna just make all hits be -1 str might as well just make the monolith itself AV 15 since thats exactly what it equates to.

and doing just that would not be worth 40 pts, people wouldnt really use it as meltas will still kill it relatively easily. paying 40pts is expensive for something that wont do much vs half the armies you might face since most armies have access to meltas.

Not exactly. Av15 would still be affected by lance. It also has different interactions with tank shock and scarabs. 40 Points on a 200 point model is a 20% price hike, for, roughly, a 16-50% survivability increase against most AT in the game. I don't see why it would be complicated to subtract 1 strength from all hits, and for the price point that OP was going for, and along the lines OP was thinking, I believe this is pretty fair.

@ Spartak
im not trying o make it "better", its actually a decent choice, not great, but decent enough for how good the army is.
my goal is to try to have it have an option to make it actually really tough, its supposed to be the toughest vehicule in the game (or just about at least) and now its really not.

avoiding to adress the melta problem is not going to cut it since melta is what tends to be its biggest problem

I say just give it the stuff it used to have pre-5th ed dex for 35 points and call it a day

that was a bit too strong, " all weapons lose Lance or melta special rule against Monolith" that was a bit too good for only 35pts

 fartherthanfar wrote:
that was a bit too strong, " all weapons lose Lance or melta special rule against Monolith" that was a bit too good for only 35pts

It did make for amusing arguments about whether meltabombs counted. Anyway the current monolith is 35 points cheaper, more vulnerable to pens, armorbane, and lance, and has worse weapons.

Ahh.. whenever I see what the Monolith is now and what is was before compared to the land raider, all I can think of that line Ward wrote in Codex: Space Marines, "but they can never be Ultramarines."

Anyway, I personally would prefer a 35pt (maybe 40-50 if you think it's too OP, I don't think it is, though) upgrade to give it lance, melta and armourbane immunity.


EDIT: Weird double post...