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okay, this has kinda bugged me fluff-wise recently regarding SMs and Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau. Why do the space marines get pretty much exclusive access to ATSKNF and the armies that (fluff-wise) are highly mobile armies that find it the epitome of stupid or just plain crazy to "stand your ground come hell or high water, don't you dare go to ground you silly wimp!!". Why do any IC or any unit other than Wraith/X units (I can see how a mindless shell infused with a long dead soul could be fearless, what's he to lose? if his body gets gak'd they just pop his stone into a new shiny body). Eldar/Dark Eldar commanders are super tacticians that have literal centuries of experience under their belts in all forms of combat, but they're to "fearless" to realize "Whelp, this is a bad situation, I could totally pull back, regroup and strike in a more tactically sound way, but feth it, these two Guardians and I can TOTALLY win against this dreadknight. Oh, make that one Guardian....". My point being, Eldar/ Dark Eldar/ Tau are not mindless or so super soldier hur dur badass that they don't care brother space elf just died next to him that they should have access to and heck, a race that fields their own dead bc they're too afraid to risk what little remain of they're own people have no right to fearless and should have fearless nowhere in the codex should have more right to a rule that SCREAMS "hit and run tactics, knowing when to regroup and retaliate" than a Captain America wannabe in the future. Fluff-wise, I don't see why the two rules should be switched around the other way. No clue what that would do to the game's balance or meta though, who knows maybe that's the only reason it hasn't been done.

Its actually quite difficult to understand what you're actually asking. Maybe im just being dense. Please could you put it in one simple sentence please?

When you post a solid text block with no breaks and lots of jumping around (with lots of brackets and deviations into other points) it become very hard to follow.

He's wondering why ancient races with long lives of experience only get at best fearless, when they are just as tactically sound enough to get ATSKNF

It's maybe due to most soldiers obeying orders, and only deviate when running away.
Where-as, Space Marines are trained to act independently from the main force, and make up new tactics on the spot.

Or some such cobblers to make SM look uber.

Mainly I think it's because fo precedent. ATSKNF has always been one of their catchphrases, and it's now their "thing." Now I agree that for some armies it would suit better than plain Fearless.

Maybe it is meant to represent the mental conditioning of Marines or something? ATSKNF seems to me to represent discipline while Fearless seems to represent ferocity. Again, this explanation begs the question why other armies can't use it...if anyone can "step back" to check how the fight's going I'm sure an Autarch or a Fireblade could.

However, for better or worse it is pretty much the exclusive trait of Marines now. It's probably just considered as one of those things that been around so long nobody's ever thought to change it.

Fluff wise, admittedly, it's a bit higgledy piggledy. But in terms of game balance, it makes all kinds of sense. Each army has one overarching rule that defines most of the tactics that race uses. So Marines get ATSKNF, because they're known for standing tall and not flinching. The other races, though...they're not known for that. Eldar are known for speed...so they get Battle Focus. Chaos get random boons for taking down notableopponents. Necrons resurrect themselves.

If you give ATSKNF to other races too, even if it's not across the board, Marines are suddenly no longer unique. The other armies get an advantage over them.

Besides this, there are lots of units that function really well as tarpits that couldn't do so if there were a chance of breaking them out of combat.

 Super Ready wrote:
Fluff wise, admittedly, it's a bit higgledy piggledy. But in terms of game balance, it makes all kinds of sense. Each army has one overarching rule that defines most of the tactics that race uses. So Marines get ATSKNF, because they're known for standing tall and not flinching. The other races, though...they're not known for that. Eldar are known for speed...so they get Battle Focus. Chaos get random boons for taking down notableopponents. Necrons resurrect themselves.

If you give ATSKNF to other races too, even if it's not across the board, Marines are suddenly no longer unique. The other armies get an advantage over them.

Besides this, there are lots of units that function really well as tarpits that couldn't do so if there were a chance of breaking them out of combat.

It'd probably help if marines weren't half the army list.

Also don't list the chaos boons as a bonus, because that things just as much a curse, everything else listed is a pure bonus.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Fluff wise, admittedly, it's a bit higgledy piggledy. But in terms of game balance, it makes all kinds of sense. Each army has one overarching rule that defines most of the tactics that race uses. So Marines get ATSKNF, because they're known for standing tall and not flinching. The other races, though...they're not known for that. Eldar are known for speed...so they get Battle Focus. Chaos get random boons for taking down notableopponents. Necrons resurrect themselves.

If you give ATSKNF to other races too, even if it's not across the board, Marines are suddenly no longer unique. The other armies get an advantage over them.

Besides this, there are lots of units that function really well as tarpits that couldn't do so if there were a chance of breaking them out of combat.

It'd probably help if marines weren't half the army list.

Also don't list the chaos boons as a bonus, because that things just as much a curse, everything else listed is a pure bonus.

Chaos marines should have a mixture of no leadership bonus units (like the modern codex), the Legiones Astartes special rule and ATSKNF for rogue chapters.

Because marines are the posterchild, they gotta have special treatment.

Have to admit i find it weird that its a BRB rule when not a single xeno or even some/most of the other marine races dont have it.

I think it should be a standard thing for MCs so at least you cant sweeping advance them. Makes no sense that sweeping advance has 0 ruling for sizes involved...as a tiny mofo could get lucky and cause 1 wound to a riptide, riptide mises his attacks, and gets sweeped by something the size of his toe.

Fluff wise it might be explained by the high level of training and fearlesness. It represents the ability to disengage from combat and fall back a short distance to resume firing. This is one of the most difficult manouvers to pull off in warfare without your troops starting to retreat instead of falling back. Only perhaps Eldar should be able to pull off a similar feat, but I dont know how they are in the fearless department on marine levels. But Tau probably wont be able to pull it off, them being on par with Guardsman in such a department.

I agree that the ability seems a bit arbitrarily passed out to armies, why not Chaos Marines for example? Some still retain good command and combat structures. Same goes for Eldar. They should get an adapted ATSKNF ability with slightly different rules.

For Tau, I could see a Modified version of ATSKNF for battle-suits, considering their "veteran" status being darn near commanders in their own right.

However for the Eldar, who while excluding probably Guardians since they're pretty much civilians with Basic training and handed a rifle, the Aspect warriors meant for ranged combat (So excluding banshees, scorpions, and Shining Spears) and by extension their PLs and Autrarchs should have a modified version of ATSKNF or just the rule under a different name. Heck they have a rule called Battle Focus, they could have easily tacked on some of ATSKNF into it as well

I wouldn't akin ATSKNF to the "army special thing" such as Gauss or Battle Focus seeing as it's not spread completely through all SM codexes. Even then, most of the armies that do have access to it have their own "special" thing that separates them from other SMs already that they build their individual tactics around. It doesn't have to be a special rule, to me, for an army to have a special tactic guideline to follow specific for their codex.

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Its actually quite difficult to understand what you're actually asking. Maybe im just being dense.

No.

It's just a giant block of rambling nonsense.

No.

It's just a giant block of rambling nonsense.

apparently not, since others seemed to understand what I wrote perfectly fine. But eh, to each his own.

overlordweasel wrote:
For Tau, I could see a Modified version of ATSKNF for battle-suits, considering their "veteran" status being darn near commanders in their own right.

However for the Eldar, who while excluding probably Guardians since they're pretty much civilians with Basic training and handed a rifle, the Aspect warriors meant for ranged combat (So excluding banshees, scorpions, and Shining Spears) and by extension their PLs and Autrarchs should have a modified version of ATSKNF or just the rule under a different name. Heck they have a rule called Battle Focus, they could have easily tacked on some of ATSKNF into it as well

I wouldn't akin ATSKNF to the "army special thing" such as Gauss or Battle Focus seeing as it's not spread completely through all SM codexes. Even then, most of the armies that do have access to it have their own "special" thing that separates them from other SMs already that they build their individual tactics around. It doesn't have to be a special rule, to me, for an army to have a special tactic guideline to follow specific for their codex.

I dont see how Tau even in battle suits would fit in with a modified ATSKNF rule. Eldar and Marines earn it on the basis of skill/genetics and being fearless (more or less for Eldar). A Tau in a battlesuit is still just a Tau, on par with a Human. Giving the veterans in the suits such a thing would mean stormtroopers would have to get something similar, seeing as how they are also veterans. Even the standard Cadian Shock Troops see more action than the average Tau Firewarrior (i.e. the Black Crusades).
Drawing the line is hard enough if we include Eldar (which are on par with marines as aspect warriors), as you demonstrated in your post. Including Tau would just start a slow slide down a slippery hill.

I don't see the argument for Eldar getting it, and Tau not. Remember that 99% of Tau models you see on the battlefield are Fire Caste, raised from youth if not birth to be ready for combat and knowing little else. It's only because the Tau themselves are physically inferior to Eldar and not genetically enhanced like Marines that they have a statline comparable to Guardsmen.
By contrast, Eldar Guardians are rank-and-file civilians who receive only the most basic combat training. If anything I'd say that a swathe of Eldar units should not get better Leadership rules, especially when you consider how self-aware of their race's mortality they are. Tau Fire Warriors are equivalent to Aspect Warriors in the intensity of their training (though the latter admittedly get many more years of it).

overlordweasel wrote:
apparently not, since others seemed to understand what I wrote perfectly fine. But eh, to each his own.

Well, the individual words and sentences make sense. But all together, your arguments jumped from one point to another without much linking them - it took a bit of translating.
You would be much easier to understand for all if you would break up what you're saying into paragraphs - people will be more willing to read it fully then, too.

 Super Ready wrote:
I don't see the argument for Eldar getting it, and Tau not. Remember that 99% of Tau models you see on the battlefield are Fire Caste, raised from youth if not birth to be ready for combat and knowing little else. It's only because the Tau themselves are physically inferior to Eldar and not genetically enhanced like Marines that they have a statline comparable to Guardsmen.
By contrast, Eldar Guardians are rank-and-file civilians who receive only the most basic combat training. If anything I'd say that a swathe of Eldar units should not get better Leadership rules, especially when you consider how self-aware of their race's mortality they are. Tau Fire Warriors are equivalent to Aspect Warriors in the intensity of their training (though the latter admittedly get many more years of it).

Remember that 99% of Cadians you see on the battlefield are raised from birth to be ready for combat and fighting. This is the problem with including Tau, they are physically inferior to Eldar and Marines. Both Eldar and Marines possibly have decades of combat experience on top of that, more than the majority of Tau or Human soldiers can claim in age.
Well guardians are the part that should not be counted. The things I mentioned only fit in with the fluff of Aspect Warriors. Its difficult enough already dividing up amongst the Eldar. But one could argue that just because of how self-aware they are of their plight they fight all the fiercer. For isnt almost any offensive/defensive operation meant to save the Craftworld (and therefore the Eldar race) from greater harm, thus increasing the chances of the individual sacrificing him/her-self for the collective.