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Afternoon everyone, having a bit of a lazy one so thought I'd just throw out a question for some people.

After the 'historical colour problem' thread it got me wondering...

Imagine someone has a platoon of 3 shermans and a firefly, with the crew painted up as canadians, and decals appropriately over the tank for the 4th canadian armoured division - 4th canadian armoured brigade, 21st Armoured regiment - super specific i know!

So how much leeway would you give them for plying it as something else?

Would you be happy them being from the 22nd armoured regiment not the 21st?
Would you be happy them being from the 2nd Canadian armoured brigade?
Would you be happy with them being 11th armoured division grenadier guards? (canadians had different colour uniforms let alone all the decals here!)
Would you be happy with them being a US sherman platoon?

As always no right answers, just interested in different peoples views

Generally if something looks like it belongs in the army and on the battlefield, by that i mean is the correct vehicle and painted in the right kind of colours then i am not sure i care about the rest.

Playing against an unpainted army or one that is purple might ruin my enjoyment of a game but some historical mismatch in terms of decals or brigades mixing etc would not.

Also i would even put up with them being a stand in for a US sherman platoon as long as it was not a permanent solution.

I suppose its points like this which would separate those who like to see things looking mostly historical and the real rivet counters.

Not that there is anything wrong with either stance

I am fine with people painting their minatures how they like.
However,if it is a particular historical period , then something sympathetic to that period is prefered by me.

Eg colors/and camo patterns found in that period look better to me than bright pink and purple stripes.

However, it does not spoil the game , just dents the asthetic appeal for me a bit.

(I can remember a player refusing to play me because some of my 6mm Russian were 'wrongly armed ' with rifles not machine guns,and My T34/D tanks were actualy T34/Fs.So I gues I am a gamer first historian second.. )

I would let it slide.Especially if the player wants to try a new list.I would even let them proxy them as american Shermans if needed.Unit markings really do not spoil it for me.The Player may have bought them used and they have a nice paint job and doesnt want to repaint them. i guess my guidelines are that the equipment must be from the same era.prefer the equipment to be for that specific army.Equipment, i prefer to be kept with the Same NAtionality.I really do not care if it is a different model of a vehicle as long as it is that vehicle,PAnther G or d example. as long it is a panther.But atleast make some effort in Painting them semi accurate or just do not paint them at all.

I wouldn't really care, the units are the same units it's just decals that are different.

Even if it's a mix of a bunch of different units, you can always explain that somehow. Maybe in the previous battle those units took casualties and had to band together to beat off an opponent. This is an A-Historical version of WW2 anyway.

Lanrak wrote:

(I can remember a player refusing to play me because some of my 6mm Russian were 'wrongly armed ' with rifles not machine guns,and My T34/D tanks were actualy T34/Fs.So I gues I am a gamer first historian second.. )

Well that's rather severe, especially for 6mm. I mean the Infantry are hard to tell apart at table-top distance already

Being new to this part of the forums I was unaware how much angst there was over this subject.
My take is simple enough: Keep your units generic.
I can appreciate research into specific units and if that is what floats your boat so be it, but it isn't for me.
Generic units wont necessarily work for units that had very specific equipment no one else had, but for WW2 that normally means SS Panzer and to a lesser extent Germans in general as they had a lot of non standard and limited production weaponry, in which certain combos meant certain specific units were on the field.
This is less of a problem with Allies, and no problem at all with Soviets.
If you keep your units generic and simply omit specific identification iconography below theatre level then it can there for you in every battle, just like the Eldrad meme.

However to answer the specific question:

Imagine someone has a platoon of 3 shermans and a firefly, with the crew painted up as canadians, and decals appropriately over the tank for the 4th canadian armoured division - 4th canadian armoured brigade, 21st Armoured regiment - super specific i know!
So how much leeway would you give them for plying it as something else?

Would you be happy them being from the 22nd armoured regiment not the 21st? - Yes, I likely wouldnt notice. If I did I would consider it super-sad to make comment other that to acknowledge recognition of what they actually are had I the knowledge to do so.
Would you be happy them being from the 2nd Canadian armoured brigade? - Yes, as above.
Would you be happy with them being 11th armoured division grenadier guards? (canadians had different colour uniforms let alone all the decals here!) - Yes, but it would be best if you mentioned them first as a courtesy. At this level of change you risk mis-educating the opponent.
Would you be happy with them being a US sherman platoon? - Yes, but they would be considered one off proxy and I would feel comfortable in asking if you wouldnt mind playing them as Canadians instead. We would have to look at specifics here, if you were a platoon short of a particular formation of US Shermans and want to make up the numbers with Canadians, go ahead; if you want to test out a US list before buying go ahead, if its a randomly generated opposing unit for a campaign then go ahead. If you are habitually going to use your Canadians as Americans in a series of games then buy a US army or play your Canadians as what they are, or as other Commonwealth troops at most.

 Reaver83 wrote:
Afternoon everyone, having a bit of a lazy one so thought I'd just throw out a question for some people.

After the 'historical colour problem' thread it got me wondering...

Imagine someone has a platoon of 3 shermans and a firefly, with the crew painted up as canadians, and decals appropriately over the tank for the 4th canadian armoured division - 4th canadian armoured brigade, 21st Armoured regiment - super specific i know!

So how much leeway would you give them for plying it as something else?

Would you be happy them being from the 22nd armoured regiment not the 21st?
Would you be happy them being from the 2nd Canadian armoured brigade?
Would you be happy with them being 11th armoured division grenadier guards? (canadians had different colour uniforms let alone all the decals here!)
Would you be happy with them being a US sherman platoon?

As always no right answers, just interested in different peoples views

My painting and modelling skills are such that I would never be in that situation myself, or in a position to criticise someone who was!!

I must admit that I like to keep my Models as Generic looking as possible for this reason and I avoid any unit specific markings. That way any British Shermans (for example) I have can be used for any games where British M4A4’s would have been. I’ve even used them as Poles in one game I did based on a Historical encounter.

 Reaver83 wrote:
So how much leeway would you give them for plying it as something else?

Would you be happy them being from the 22nd armoured regiment not the 21st?
Would you be happy them being from the 2nd Canadian armoured brigade?
Would you be happy with them being 11th armoured division grenadier guards? (canadians had different colour uniforms let alone all the decals here!)
Would you be happy with them being a US sherman platoon?

As always no right answers, just interested in different peoples views

Only thing that would bug me would be using the firefly in an American force. Beyond that so what? The tanks are painted appropriately for the period so aren't in a non-historical paint job and honestly the presence of decals on the tanks in no way changes the way the rules apply to them if they were instead used as British or even US tanks. There is someone out there, though, who would be annoyed by it.

The question comes in as to when is an historical paint job enough? Or does it have to be the perfectly appropriately historical paintjob? I wonder if some folks on here would play against my guards household cavalry force. Because I started with midwar brits I have a ton of armored cars painted for the desert. I was most definitely not going to purchase them all again so that I could paint them green for use in Europe, so the few newer armored cars I got have instead been painting in desert colors to keep the army looking like a unified force. It is an historical paint scheme, but not an actual paint scheme ever seen on the staghounds or the AEC III heavy armoured cars. So who knows.

Just like the historical paint job thread you'll get similar issues for some people with this scenario too.

Skriker

I guess i am Generic,Say what you want but i leave the decals off of my Vehicles.The unit markings ones.

If the buttons and belt buckles aint the correct colour, let alone the tanks - I aint playing.

For Germans I dont generally mark things up for actual units, much prefer a generic approach and its fairly inkeeping with late war German practice anyway were many vehicles had no markings at all. My only German vehicle marked as a specific unit is my 21st Panzer stuff as its all pretty crazy vehicles anyway and so few others used them.

For allies I tend to pick a unit or two to mark them up as, but thats only cos the decals look pretty...

Russians...Seeing as the Russians never worked out what there numbering and unit system was during the war, Im not sure I can be bothered to worry about it now either.

If they have three shermans and a firefly, play them as 3 shermans and a firefly. I don't care which book or which army/regiment/etc/etc. Props if the paint job look good (doesn't have to be historically accurate).

My feelings on it. It's a game, I really don't care about a paint job. They could be pink and purple for all I care (granted I'd think it would look terrible and unrealistic), but that doesn't mean I'd fuss over it as long as I get a good game out of the opponent.

Cheers for the replies everyone.

I think it's great that people all have their own views, once again shows the variety of gamers and how no option is the right one.

If I paint my models in grayscale/sepia, like photos and film recordings from the time, would people have a problem, you think?

Not as long as your terrain is in Greyscale...

Big P wrote:
Not as long as your terrain is in Greyscale...

No, it not. it is supposed to be in stryofoam white.

To be honest, I would get a bit funny about some painting their miniatures outlandishly.

If they were Purple with Yellow crosses or whatever, I'd be "GTFO" because if you want that play 40k or a Fantasy game. This is a Wargame in a historical context.

Imagine turning upto Napoleonic Waterloo Battle with a force of Florescent Coloured Napoleonics. I mean they were pretty bling to begin with you don't need to make it worse.

It's a question of Decorum, all sports have their customs, like Uniforms, or colours. Restaurants and clubs have dress codes, sports and social clubs the same, because there is always a di-ck who ruins it for everyone by being stupid or taking it to extremes. The kind of person who likes to cause trouble "because it's my right to express myself".....Yup you do, but not here in our private members club so **** off.

Sorry to be harsh, but I've had a guts full of pandering to idiots of late, if you don't like it go play on your own, no ones stopping you.

I personally wouldn't have much of a problem with the example in the OP at all.

To me, as long as a Sherman represents a Sherman I'm fine with it. If they're Canadians in a US list I wouldn't mind too much. It's likely a temporary proxy, so I don't have an issue as long as they're painted in historical colours (our club is pretty lenient about this though; we sometimes play with unfinished models.)

Personally; I may run foul of this myself. I generally run a German Fusilier company, with a StuG unit. I have some from the Open Fire kit and some older versions. (With the square gun mantlet - Big P could probably tell me what mark they are ) Some of them have slightly different guns too, but they all get run as the same type of StuG. In our group, as long as a StuG represents a StuG, or a Sherman represents a Sherman etc. There isn't a problem

A fair amount so long as it's based right, obvious and made clear before the battle starts.

For instance, I've got a Maus that I used to count as a King Tiger for a short while.

I don't think it is unrealistic to have units mixing outside of their established Battalion/Corp/army commands. So a Canadian tank squadron appearing in a Brit or US (or visa versa) force would have been common enough that I can not say that I would have any sort of problem with it, so long as it is painted.

Also from a gaming perspective 15mm scale and the rule of 3' (and my eyesight!) mean that I will not notice (or particularly care) whether you have the right mark of tank so long as it is the correct tank. In the context of FoW there is very little difference from one mark of Sherman to another ruleswise.

I would be less forgiving where there are significant rules differences, like the differing armaments on Stugs or a regular Churchill with a Close Support version as there could be confusion issues there; particularly where you are fielding a mix similar tanks.

I'm just starting, but I keep my tanks as general as possible too. I also believe that a Panzer IV is a Panzer IV, and I don't care if it was sculpted as a J or a M or whatever. That being said, I also don't included different models in the same army (mostly so I don't confuse myself!).

In the OP, the only one that I'd have a question about is running the Firefly as a US tank... but it would only be a question and I'd hope that my opponent would have the good graces to discuss things before hand.

Thing is... You can have long and short barrel Panzer IVs...


So you may wanna worry about the Panzer IVs too.

And then there is the Panzer III... Is it the version with the 37mm, short 50mm or the long 50mm?


At least you are safe with a Tiger... Everyone knows its just a big fecking gun.

Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm just starting, but I keep my tanks as general as possible too. I also believe that a Panzer IV is a Panzer IV, and I don't care if it was sculpted as a J or a M or whatever. That being said, I also don't included different models in the same army (mostly so I don't confuse myself!).

In the OP, the only one that I'd have a question about is running the Firefly as a US tank... but it would only be a question and I'd hope that my opponent would have the good graces to discuss things before hand.

They can.they just remove the Turret.