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I have been going threw my brand spankin new (tasty) codex now since I left Adepticon. Thinking about how I am going to compose my list and the kind of options I have. I am not to interested with Mech. Tau because the amount of points I am spending on Devilfishes could be spent other places and escalation can really mess that list up. So my idea is for what Tau Online calls the "Hybrid" force. Basically have a mix of mounted and mobile forces with some static aspects. So still have your Firewarriors mounted, but take things like Kroot, Sniper drones, Broadsides, Vespid, etc. So I got thinking, if I have a force that has Sniperdrones, Broadsides, Pathfinders, Stealthsuits (leader w/ Markerlight), and Forge World Tetras, maybe it would be more advantageous to take a Skyray as my third Heavy and forgo the Hammerhead altogether. In what I mentioned above, you can easily have 10+ markerlights on the field. Especially with Sniper Drones and Stealths, you can have BS 4 markerlights that are almost impossible to kill at range. Broadsides can fill the Railgun requirement, but really how many Railguns do you need on the board. A skyray can provide seeker missles across the whole battlefield whist staying out of fire. And can even have a SMS to provide support if something gets to close.

Am I crazy or to optimistic?

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The two are not mutually exclusive.

I have nothing else to add.

I don't think you NEED a hammerhead with ability to give slow and purposfull to broadsides. Maybe two units of two broadsides (with shield drones) and then sniper drones would probably make an effective HS base. You probably wouldn't need a sky ray, but a unit of pathfinders and two small units of firewarriors with markerlight 'els to help spread the markerlight love. If you wanted seekers (since your only limited to 2 on the pathfinder D-fish) Piranhas with fusion blasters would be a good place for them. It gives you your mobile tank hunting ability that you loose by leaving the hammerheads at home, and they are very fast for getting around to side armor shots.

If you do go the marker light route. It will be important to have units that benifit from them. That would be a full firewarrior units in D-fish, and full units of stealths or crisis suits. This will also help give you your Hybred feel.

Think about it this way. What does a Hammerhead do that you can't get from other units?

Sub-munitions
Manoeuvreability
Hard to kill (but so are Broadsides with shield drones)

How valuable are those points?

Mauleed, was your link intended to be recursive?

I think a heavy crisis suit list with a few broadsides would work fine if you utilize lots and lots of shield drones.

Hammerheads aren't a necessity and I still wouldn't use any of them if I didn't have at least 2 fishes or 8 pirahna backing them up.

Don't get too excited by what TauOnline has to say about anything...

If you load up on Battlesuits, a couple of move and shoot Broadsides, maybe a sniper drone set (but they seem overpointed for a non-scoring unit to me) and some min-sized gun drones for striking at rear armour, then it might work.

You may be crazy, but not because of a Hammerheadless list.

Back when the first Tau dex was released, I was 5th in a tournament here with no HHs. Then 4th ed screwed shield drones, rhino rush died and the game changed considerably.

Now I've tried the foot Tau twice and been very impressed. I'm thinking heavily about taking them out on one of the two, big, upcoming tournaments here in Finland: the Fanatic Helsinki or the Royal Rumble. Shield Drones are truely back, markers worth it and Crisis Suits cheaper, while Rhino rush is gone and you don't yet see many Drop Pod armies here. (I have one, I intend to use in atleast one of the upcoming tournies)

I'm also wondering it infantry Tau aren't the way to go. Anyone want to trade some hammerheads for some broadsides?

Here's the thing about the Skyray, it's only 6 missiles. You can get that on 2 Devilfish and a Hammerhead. If you take the Skyray, what is it going to do? Fire SMS while hiding? That is one expensive SMS. It may be scoring while it's hiding, but it's not worth it.

With Broadsides becoming move and shoot and sniper teams, the Skyray just doesn't stack up.

A Hammerhead is much more versatile than a Broadside team of 2 w/drones while costing the same. It also moves 12" and shoots while a Broadside moves a mere D6".

However, both have their place. An infantry list with Broadsides can work well. Going without HHs isn't crazy, but taking a Skyray just might be. Now 2 HHs and a team of 2 Broadsides is sure to mess with anybodys list for that mixed approach.

Don't forget that the skyray isn't all about the seeker missiles, it's the only place in the Tau list that you can get move and shoot markers. The skyray is more suited to small games (below 1250pts) where you don't need as many railguns.

I've been experimenting with infantry Tau and Shadowsun, so far the results are mixed but I think I'll be putting a Hammerhead back in, the mobility it offers is too good to pass up.

I'm considering the infantry version (mostly, still has a devilfish for the pathfinders).

I think I'm going to have a real problem dealing with indirect fire though.

I guess about the only way to deal with indirect fire in a static list is deep-striking, but that still gives the enemy a couple of turns to plaster your guys.

Mauleed, you said you wanted to build your Tau to take on drop pods, so it appears you believe there may be advantages to the infantry version in that matchup. I'm curious to see your train of thought on that. Also, what's the plan against fear-causing librarians in general?

I think the only real threats a Tau list can present to Indirect Fire Ordanance is Deepstriking Fusion Suits or the new skimmer. Tetras could do it, if there are seekers on the board.

Assuming that the Piranha (the new skimmer) is a viable threat (I believe it is decent, but others disagree), it will have a hard time surviving in an infantry list. Combining the facts that it is open-topped and one of the few vehicles in the list means that it is going to take the majority of heavy weapons fire and won't be able to shrug it off.

Of course, if the Piranha *does* manage to take out the ordinance before crashing, it will save much more points-worth of troops than it sacrificed. However, your opponent should realize that too and will do whatever it takes to make sure he takes it out before that happens

EDIT:  I just realized that we weren't discussing infantry lists only, just lists without Hammerheads (which include infantry lists).  So, take my comments in that light.  Thanks.

Posted By mauleed on 03/31/2006 1:56 PM

I'm considering the infantry version (mostly, still has a devilfish for the pathfinders).

I think I'm going to have a real problem dealing with indirect fire though.

It's not just the indirect fire, though.  Fast assault armies will still be a problem as well. 

I'm seeing more and more people moving towards minimum FCW armies, though.  Even so I think it makes sense to keep them buttoned up in the Devilfish until you need to deploy them.  The new SMS on the Devilfish gives the vehicle some serious utility.  Consider that for around 120 points, the Devilfish gives you a skimmer chassis that can belt out up to 7 S5 shots at BS4, 4 of which don't even need line of sight.  An equivalent expenditure in stealth suits uses up not only a precious elite slot but really only nets you two more shots, at a lower BS and at shorter range.  Considering the UK GT results, it seems like that extra 6" would have done people a lot of good.

You have to take at least one FCW unit.  The size of that unit really doesn't matter much in my opinion.  I rely on the rest of my army to do the heavy lifting.  But since you have to take it, you might as well protect it and get a decent gunship in the bargain.  Foot FCW's are just asking to be hosed by heavy bolters and assault cannons or assaulted in turn 2.

Ezz

Devilfish with SMS, 120 points for a non-scoring unit. Sorry but I can't see this one being useful, especialy in a JSJ list where it will probably be the only target for your opponent to shoot.

You can have 72 firewarrior+ 12 honour guard firewarrior + ethereal for a little less than 1000 points. You add the +1 commander crisis suit with fusion blaster to deep strike in sacrifice, some deathrain for anti ligth vehicle, a stealth suit team and some broadside and you have a 1500 point list. but I am still not convince that 84 firewarrior model will be a firebase that can be enough to stop an assault army

In responce to static firewarriors. In the Adepticon Team Tournament I played Hybrid Tau and one of our team mates played Static Tau. The two of us played to games together. I think between the two of us we had 5 Standing teams. The first game saw us against Tau and IG, which was uninventfull because neither side left the deployment zone. The second was against Dark Eldar in which we drew because faster units where abe to contest objectives, however we spaced each standing unit 6+ inches away from each other. Any assault army doesn't want to be out in the cold after they defeat a Tau unit. Because the Dark Eldar players where afraid of that the played a little more causious and in return we got more shooting in. Overall, standing firewarriors are hard to take down expecially if you field large numbers, and most lists are designed to take out marines. Honestly, how many heavy bolters does Mauleed have in his typical lists or any competitive gamer? A 20 Point lascannon shot taking out a 10 point Firewarrior is a plus in my book. Whirlwinds would be a problem though.

4 Heavy Bolters will kill 60 points of Firewarriors per shooting phase if they're not in cover.  And I can't remember the last time I saw a static marine list that doesn't have at least one Dev squad with Heavy Bolters in it.

As for the Devilfish issue, how can you not see it being useful?  Let them shoot at my fast moving skimmer all they want.  And that's if they have line of sight to it to begin with.

Ezz

I'm considering the infantry version (mostly, still has a devilfish for the pathfinders).
I think I'm going to have a real problem dealing with indirect fire though.

deep striking crisis suits. THats why they're called crisis suits, they deal with a crisis.

i think fusion piranha are important for a slow/infantry tau list, for just that reason.

anyway for 1500 i am also considering a mecha army:
2 shas'els, fireknife
2 fireknife, 2 shield drones
2 fireknife, 2 shield drones
4 stealths
6 firewarriors
10 kroot
10 kroot
10 kroot
2 broadsides, ASS, 2 shield drones
2 broadsides, ASS, 2 shield drones
2 broadsides, ASS, 2 shield drones

compared to my old codex mech list, with 3 railheads and loads of stealth, it has far fewer shots. it can't deal with hordes, the 3 railheads could defeat a nid swarm practically by themselves (tank shock + submunition + skimmer wall to block assault)

hence the kroot are needed imo for gaunts to chew, if im in cover gaunts will bounce. also kroot provide the bulk numbers of shots that the list (surprisingly as tau) lacks. also there's a squad per broadside unit, for escort work, they'll just be a unit in the way rather than for counter assault really.

there's a stealth squad rather than 3 crisis squads incase there's not enough terrain to JSJ on, they can operate in different locations to fireknife and this should relieve pressure on available terrain bits

optional in this army is a shas'el with bs5 and cyclic ion blaster and burstcannon, its 88 pts but gets as many marine kills as 133 pts of stealth. its purely anti-infantry, but in this list with 5 fireknife and 6 broadsides already i dont think its as pressed for anti-tank and its not crucial to take all crisis with high strength guns.