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I would first like to state, that I am a big fan of Space Wolves (Their Vikings, Im a Viking - Essentially), and I am a major fan of Leman Russ (He's a Viking Warlord essentially). I am also a fan of Angron (He's a gladiator, and a truly pure form of violence, who would have been a truthfully inspiring warrior if he'd not been turned insane), and The Heresy Era World Eaters/Warhounds (They are true Gladiator/Warriors). So this thread isn't based on any preference (eh... alittle) towards either side, I am just genuinely wanting to find a way to put some of the peices together properly.

In the novel "Betrayer" by Aaron Dembsky Bowden, Angron and Russ had an engagement where Russ tried to make Angron curb his ways (Not knowing of the Nails being permanent, and honestly Aaron made Russ look/sound like a pussywhipped bitch.... which is rediculous) towards making his legion into a mess, or effectively, more of a mess then currently it was going towards. The BOOK said in repeated text, that no Legion was sure that day who won, and everyone was sure they had lost - the words from the Old Legion Master himself . Lorgar pointed out to Angron that Russ had done all of this to point out a lesson - at the end of the conflict Russ apparently was knocked down, and was surrounded by his Sons, who would have killed Angron with an order from Russ, thus proving Angrons lack of unity with his sons was his weakness. Another point is that, Angron might be remembering things from a hazed point of view - the nails completely tear him apart, their killing him and making him lose his sanity, seeing a fight through rose petals isnt a hard concept to work with - and it might have gone down different.

I know that in the process of the Lore, Angron is considered to be an unbalanced fully driven, berserker of fury and martial prowess, and that Russ by oposition is just a Warrior/Hunter who was brought up in a Norse'esk fantasy based Death world. However, unless Aaron is just extremely biased towards Russ taking a dive, he wouldn't have been so easily knocked back in a blade><blade confrontation surely? (He was physically knocked back like a ragdoll when angron shoved him backwards, sending him "Staggering backwards" which is pointedly rediculous). It just seems to me, its either writers bias, or GW has decided to make Russ markedly inferior to another primarch for the sake of content - ignoring the fact that apart from a few points in history (Big E face punch, Lion surprise punch, and Magnus psychic powers) has Russ come up against another being who proved a match), Russ was a match.

So what Im getting at here is, Did Leman Russ let angron win for the sake of showing up his errors (Lorgar hinted at this)? >< Is it possible Angron is telling a half truth of the story due to the nails/pride/else >< or if the whole thing is the case, is it possible Aaron portrayed Leman poorly?

Excuse my Bias towards Leman Russ, but I feel like writers Preference of one over the other has a large part in the stories outcome.

Discuss please

This is a giant can of worms, lol.

My interpretation of that scene was that Russ wasn't fighting to kill Angron, which left him at a disadvantage against Angron, who was fighting without regard for Russ's condition at the end of it.

Russ holding back would have left him at a distinct disadvantage.

This is somewhat corroborated by Lorgar's depiction of the action as well.

Angron would probably win in a fight regardless of whether or not Russ was giving his all.

That being said, Russ (and the Wolves) were not fighting to destroy the World Eaters- they were trying to teach them a lesson. So, not a great gauge for the Wolves' combat prowess.

If you believe Lorgar the only ones wo could beat angron where Horus and Sanguinius, Angron is bigger stronger and fiercer thenn Russ. It was a duel ( angrons specialty) the outcome was very much expected.

I'm in the same boat as the poster of the thread. But I'll openly say this now: I'm a Space Wolves Fan and I play them strictly. I respect and like Angron because of the reasons stated. But I love Russ because of, again, reasons stated. Now I can't go out right and say Angron would have won absolutely. The Lion got Russ with a sneak punch while Russ was laughing(after a fight that lasted a couple of days non stop). Magnus did use psychic powers but tat didn't change the fact that Russ beat him and the only reason magnus and the TS lived was thanks to Magnus accepting the Dark God of Change. Angron fought Grand Papa Smurf himself(Old Guilman) and made the mighty primarch take a knee while Angron kept the swings going until he became a daemon prince(if I remember correctly). So both of these two Primarchs are badass and awesome in combat. Angron does have an edge in it, I'll admit to that. But Russ isn't a slouch so in a straight up, no holds bar match it could go either way. You are right writers do go with whom they like/or go with whom the story should center or something that fills the role of the book. Russ and the Wolves weren't out to destroy the World Eaters. So that plays into that right there. So yeah Russ was holding back most likely other wise that fight would have been longer, bloodier, and by all damn well a planet would have been gone because of these two power house legions going at it!

RE: the Lion fight. Russ started that fight with a sucker punch that the Lion shrugged off. The return sucker punch knocked out Russ for a few days.

RE: the Magnus fight. In the Index Astartes, Russ straight-up kicked Magnus' ass. In the HH novels, Russ was getting curb-stomped. Magnus had just stopped the entire "loyalist" advance, destroyed a few dozen tanks, killed both of Russ' companion wolves, and had just cooked Russ with lightning and caved his chest in with a punch, when Russ "reeling and bellowing in pain, lashed out blindly" and just happened to hit the one vulnerability Magnus had. Just as planned...

RE: the Angron fight. Letting Angron win was not conducive to the point Russ was trying to make, considering he came in swaggering and bellowing orders for Angron to submit. When it comes to raw martial skill, the World Eaters just had the Space Wolves outclassed. Russ tried to make the point that rabid berserkers don't make good soldiers, but Angron didn't really give a gak about being a good soldier. Russ was barking up the wrong tree, no pun intended.

And honestly, although I'm not fond of the Space Wolves with their silly codex fluff, even I feel the HH novels are doing Russ a dis-service by portraying him, as the OP so aptly put it, a pussywhipped bitch. He is either a frothing idiot (A Thousand Sons, Fear to Tread), or a paranoid and duplicitous (Prospero Burns). I hope there is another book focused on the Rout that makes them more tolerable.

If you ask Russ, I don't think he'd tell you that he "let" Angron win. He'd probably tell you how he himself won that fight, especially by proving his point that the Wolves were the superior Legion.

In reply to the title, no Leman Russ is weaker than Angron by a large margin.
Quite a few characters call Magnus the strongest primarch.

 Omegus wrote:
RE: the Angron fight. Letting Angron win was not conducive to the point Russ was trying to make, considering he came in swaggering and bellowing orders for Angron to submit. When it comes to raw martial skill, the World Eaters just had the Space Wolves outclassed. Russ tried to make the point that rabid berserkers don't make good soldiers, but Angron didn't really give a gak about being a good soldier. Russ was barking up the wrong tree, no pun intended.

Except this is backwards. There is no lesson if Russ win. The lesson is about how Angron is destroying his Legion and his way of war. "Win enough fights and you win the war". But in Night of the Wolf Angron wins the fight but would have lost the war. There by demonstraighting that just winning "Fights" is pointless. But in the end Russ was "Barking up the wrong tree" and that is why Lorgar says that Russ probably lamented Angron's thick head all the way to Terra.

If Russ won then the lesson would have just been "The Wolves are better then you". And there is no point in that.

 Omegus wrote:

RE: the Magnus fight. In the Index Astartes, Russ straight-up kicked Magnus' ass.

Actually, in the Space Wolf re-telling of the fight, Leman Russ bodily tackles Magnus, who halts Russ' entire forward momentum, and Magnus proceeds to, indeed, punch his fist through Magnus' chest.

Weirdly enough, it is the Thousand Sons section of Index Astartes where Magnus is just sort of picked up and broken.


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 Omegus wrote:
RE: the Lion fight. Russ started that fight with a sucker punch that the Lion shrugged off. The return sucker punch knocked out Russ for a few days.

To be fair, Russ and Lion had just finished beating the gak out of each other for IIRC days. Lion took a sucker punch while he was still fresh, Leman Russ took one after a long ass fight.


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 ThePrimordial wrote:
In reply to the title, no Leman Russ is weaker than Angron by a large margin.
Quite a few characters call Magnus the strongest primarch.

I don't know if the margin is "large", though in martial combat he should be lesser, and unlike some of the other psyker primarchs, Leman Russ' seeming specialty (Anti-psychic blasts) do little to nothing to bridge the gap.

It was pretty clear what went down. Angron defeated Leman Russ in combat, and Russ went into the engagement knowing that. However it was used as a distraction to encircle Angron. It was meant to demonstrate how Angron values on martial prowess and has no strategic mind.

I get the feeling this is one of those questions that GW will be the only realistic giver of knowledge to... as the first guy who answered my question said "Can of worms"...

I feel personally, much like others have agree'd with me so far in this thread - and a good few haven't - that its a case of character favouritism in the setting.

Angron gets his super plot armour from the writer (almost) Sympathy, Guiliman and Lorgar arguably the same. Russ seems to get the arse end of the stick all the time, Same with Corax, Same with Perturabo (Being held capture by fething fulgrim due to sapping his strength with a magical stone?)...

 dakkawolf wrote:
I get the feeling this is one of those questions that GW will be the only realistic giver of knowledge to... as the first guy who answered my question said "Can of worms"...

I feel personally, much like others have agree'd with me so far in this thread - and a good few haven't - that its a case of character favouritism in the setting.

Angron gets his super plot armour from the writer (almost) Sympathy, Guiliman and Lorgar arguably the same. Russ seems to get the arse end of the stick all the time, Same with Corax, Same with Perturabo (Being held capture by fething fulgrim due to sapping his strength with a magical stone?)...

You seem to have this backwards......
Angron didn't have plot armor in that fight, Russ did because he wasn't instantly eviscerated into a fine paste. Angron must have had a really high fever that day. Russ is a mid-low tier primarch. He only beat Magnus because he had very strong anti psychic abilities and even then Magnus was really heavily winning before he slipped up and took the time to heal his left arm. If you're a primarch and you struggle to beat Magnus in HTH you're bitch tier because that's his main weakness and supposedly Russ's strength.
I mean Angron overpowers titans and takes titan plasma weaponry with no damage. I think it was outright said that in terms of brute strength and durability Angron is #1 by a large margin. Russ aint got jack diddly squat on Angron.
Edit: I think Magnus was actually such a strong psyker that he had a negative effect on blanks instead of the other way around. Off topic but I'm curious and I'm not gonna start a whole thread about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
RE: the Lion fight. Russ started that fight with a sucker punch that the Lion shrugged off. The return sucker punch knocked out Russ for a few days.

RE: the Magnus fight. In the Index Astartes, Russ straight-up kicked Magnus' ass. In the HH novels, Russ was getting curb-stomped. Magnus had just stopped the entire "loyalist" advance, destroyed a few dozen tanks, killed both of Russ' companion wolves, and had just cooked Russ with lightning and caved his chest in with a punch, when Russ "reeling and bellowing in pain, lashed out blindly" and just happened to hit the one vulnerability Magnus had. Just as planned...

RE: the Angron fight. Letting Angron win was not conducive to the point Russ was trying to make, considering he came in swaggering and bellowing orders for Angron to submit. When it comes to raw martial skill, the World Eaters just had the Space Wolves outclassed. Russ tried to make the point that rabid berserkers don't make good soldiers, but Angron didn't really give a gak about being a good soldier. Russ was barking up the wrong tree, no pun intended.

And honestly, although I'm not fond of the Space Wolves with their silly codex fluff, even I feel the HH novels are doing Russ a dis-service by portraying him, as the OP so aptly put it, a pussywhipped bitch. He is either a frothing idiot (A Thousand Sons, Fear to Tread), or a paranoid and duplicitous (Prospero Burns). I hope there is another book focused on the Rout that makes them more tolerable.

Again Magnus= the strongest primarch and Russ= bitch tier. This is one of my favorite scenes in all of the horus hersey with Magnus descending from a massive crystal pyramid like an angry god bringing the battle heavily in 1k sons favor with gestures.

H2H being Magnus' main weakness is not stated anywhere. Actually his martial strength is explicitly on a level with Leman Russ.

Leman Russ is not a "mid-low tier Primarch".

 Void__Dragon wrote:
H2H being Magnus' main weakness is not stated anywhere. Actually his martial strength is explicitly on a level with Leman Russ.

Leman Russ is not a "mid-low tier Primarch".

What would have happened if Magnus grew to warlord titan size and then started to fight? Russ dead with no fight. I was just saying Russ always has plot armor for some reason. Why didn't Magnus think of this? It was a buff to Magnus himself so how would Russ block it?
Really? So Magnus has no weaknesses then.
He is low tier. Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus, & Horus compose the top tier. The only ones stated to be able to beat Angron in a fight were Sanguinius and Horus. The lion was a standard primarch with no unique abilities and he actually beat Russ. So yeah.

That's true, lol. The only rational explanation as to why he didn't just grow and step on Russ is that he felt he didn't need to/wanted a more personal touch. Then Tzeench poked him in the eye.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

What would have happened if Magnus grew to warlord titan size and then started to fight? Russ dead with no fight. I was just saying Russ always has plot armor for some reason. Why didn't Magnus think of this? It was a buff to Magnus himself so how would Russ block it?
Really? So Magnus has no weaknesses then.

Magnus did grow to the size of a Titan actually. As did Leman Russ. McNeill seems to be portraying Primarchs as legitimately mythical figures, who engorge in size when using the full extent of their powers. Or maybe Leman Russ, as a fellow psyker, can also manage that feat.

Yes, in Index Astartes, Magnus' strength in combat is explicitly compared to Leman Russ'. In the Space Wolf entry no less. this was explicitly excluding his mastery of sorcery. A Thousand Sons also supports this.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Magnus is the most powerful Primarch, but that doesn't mean Leman Russ is gak.

He is low tier. Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus, & Horus compose the top tier. The only ones stated to be able to beat Angron in a fight were Sanguinius and Horus. The lion was a standard primarch with no unique abilities and he actually beat Russ. So yeah.

So uh, why do people give a gak about what Corax thinks?

No omniscient being ever said only those two could beat Angron, Corax did. Perturabo has higher regard for Fulgrim than Angron, Dorn thinks he would outright crush him (Though lolDorn applies).

Sanguinius has even less hype than Angron, he has literally only Horus' word. His showings against Greater Daemons are even worse than bitch!Lorgar's, if you really want to get technical.

Horus exists solely on hype. Nothing he has done nor his portrayal in the series implies he is as powerful as some fans claim him to be.

The Lion was one of the finest swordsmen of the Primarchs, he rather casually tooled Curze in a contest of pure swordplay, and he is one of the few Primarchs to use his psychic powers offensively. More importantly, he laid Russ out with a sucker punch on a weary and unaware Leman Russ.

Russ is one of the stronger Primarchs.

Lorgar gets bonuses against daemons like Russ does against psykers.

Based on what, exactly?

And this was bitch!Lorgar, before he awakened his true psychic power.

Based on all Word Bearers having extra power over daemons taken from Lorgar's teachings and their unique relationship with the gods. He faced the daemon during his sojourn, when Chaos was already filling his head how he's the Chosen One to bring humanity "enlightenment" and all that nonsense.

Russ' bonus based on him having a howl that makes psykers' heads explode, and reflecting the power of Auramagma (guy who basically shot meltaguns out of his fingertips, pewpew easily rivaling Kor'Paeron's) with even greater intensity. I don't recall them becoming titans, but if so, it seems Russ is an anti-psychic weapon whose power is commensurate to the strength of the psyker he's facing.

Which is actually gives him a neat twist. It makes sense that Magnus is the most powerful Primarch, and that Russ was the only possible choice of who to send because his unique ability made him the only one who remotely stood a chance, and even then he only managed it due to a lucky (Just As Planned?) shot.

With Vulkan being a perpetual, Kurze being prophetic, Corax becoming invisible, Jagatai summoning storms, etc., it seems many of the Primarchs have a "shtick".

It was cleraly stated in the books multiple times that the only Primarch who could fight Angron and hope to win is Sanguinius. Noone else could best him in a fair fight, but the key world is "fair". Russ being cunning and smart managed to defeat Angron, thoug Angron himself was too blind to realize his defeat.

And speaking about "not fighting in full power", primarchs are too hard to kill - during HH books they get eviscerated, body parts cut /blown off (including like a third of his god damned head in case o the Lion), get their spine broken or cut in half by power sword and boiled in titan-gun plasma fire only to fully regen few days/hours/minutes later. Russ, being the legion executioner, must know wery well, that it almost impossible to "accidentally" kill the Primarch.

Well, that's the thing, he didn't kill him, just incapacitated him. A broken spine and gouged eye is no big whoop to a Primarch in the long term. It could well be that Russ would have then dragged his crippled ass to Terra. Magnus "died" because in his defeat he saw the destruction of everything he worked for (it seems Prospero was to suffer Monarchia's fate regardless), so took Tzeench's deal to salvage what he could.

 Mezmerro wrote:
It was cleraly stated in the books multiple times that the only Primarch who could fight Angron and hope to win is Sanguinius.

No it isn't.

It is stated once, by one guy (And he included Horus with Sanguinius).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
Based on all Word Bearers having extra power over daemons taken from Lorgar's teachings and their unique relationship with the gods. He faced the daemon during his sojourn, when Chaos was already filling his head how he's the Chosen One to bring humanity "enlightenment" and all that nonsense.

Russ' bonus based on him having a howl that makes psykers' heads explode, and reflecting the power of Auramagma (guy who basically shot meltaguns out of his fingertips, pewpew easily rivaling Kor'Paeron's) with even greater intensity. I don't recall them becoming titans, but if so, it seems Russ is an anti-psychic weapon whose power is commensurate to the strength of the psyker he's facing.

Which is actually gives him a neat twist. It makes sense that Magnus is the most powerful Primarch, and that Russ was the only possible choice of who to send because his unique ability made him the only one who remotely stood a chance, and even then he only managed it due to a lucky (Just As Planned?) shot.

With Vulkan being a perpetual, Kurze being prophetic, Corax becoming invisible, Jagatai summoning storms, etc., it seems many of the Primarchs have a "shtick".

He didn't even use any of his psychic abilities against An'ggrath though. He just wailed on him with his mace.

Leman Russ reflecting Auramagma's power seems to be a trait of his armour, judging by the wording IIRC. As for them becoming super huuuuuuuuuge, Ahriman notes it when they fight.

Corax actually seems to be just a generally powerful telepath, not just capable of forcing others to not perceive him. He is said to be able to cloud and twist the minds of others, and sends a telepathic distress beacon to some buttmonkey in The Raven's Flight. Which makes Corax something of a super hypocrite.

I agree that Russ' psychic defence is linked to his armor. Because Magnus only uses offensive powers after he breaks his chest plate. Trice Blessed Armor for sure.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He didn't even use any of his psychic abilities against An'ggrath though. He just wailed on him with his mace.

Chaos Gods are whispering to Lorgar how he is the Chosen one and their favorite and so very special and smart and handsome. He comes across one of the greatest champions of the god of war himself, and the meekest of the Primarchs "soundly defeats it". Just as planned.

Trying to focus on the OP's question (and not on whether I think Russ is a 'crap primarch'):

I think Aaron portrayed Russ very fairly. A lot of people, even other primarchs, look at Russ with a bit of disdain, seeing an uncultured, uncouth, uneducated barbarian. Russ, to some extent, encourages that perception, for various reasons.

However, it's never been the case that Russ is actually stupid or foolish. Sure, he's been duped and misled, but he's not a fool.

I don't think there's any way that you can avoid arguing that Russ, regardless of how he compares mentally to Dorn, or Magnus, or whoever, isn't a more canny, more subtle thinker than Angron. He's more beloved by his Legion, and he's done a better job conserving their lives, rather than expending them ruthlessly at every turn. He's not a brain-damaged monster, and he hasn't turned his sons into brain-damaged killers.

I think it would be unfair to Angron if he wasn't physically and personally martially superior to Russ, in an authorial sense. Russ gets lots of cool stuff. Angron gets the honor of being the original 'Angry Marine', and that's about it.

Within the fluff, though, that's partly Angron's own fault. He doesn't take his own personal tragedies (and they are substantial) and use them to help his Legion. He takes the Legion and tears it apart into his own image. He destroys his own psykers. He lobotomizes his own sons. He takes a Legion of disciplined warriors and breaks them down into murderers.

Russ is trying to help him. Russ is trying to help Angron see the bigger picture. "Sure, you might be able to beat me, personally, but if that fight over-extends you, and plays you right into the enemy's hands, have you really won anything?" It's crucial to remember who Russ is at this point. He's the Emperor's executioner, for all intents and purposes. He (and presumably his Legion) have put down one or two Primarchs (and their legions, perhaps* at this point (my memory is unclear if Russ and the Legion wiped both of them). He's not just some concerned brother Primarch. He's the guy they will send to kill Angron if they decide to put him down.

He doesn't want that to happen. He says that himself, to Angron.

But he has just walked Angron through exactly how it could happen. Exactly how Angron's own flaws and weaknesses could make it happen. All Russ would have to do is present himself as a challenger, and Angron would fight his way right into an execution squad. He just did, in fact, but Russ lets him go.

I thought it was a very sympathetic portrayal of a Primarch, and a man, who doesn't necessarily like what he has to do, but knows what he has to do, and has the moral compass to do it. It might not be the best portrayal of Russ if you just want him to be the biggest, baddest Viking EVAR (WHOOOOOOO!), but it has more depth and humanity. Just like the Norse were portrayed as wild-eyed reavers by their victims, but actually had a sophisticated culture and lots of amazing traits (and were, to be fair, still pretty scary warriors), Russ is more than just the blustery berserker, too.


*For the people dismissing Russ as a 'bottom tier Primarch", it's worth considering that Russ may have killed at least one other Primarch himself. Not a particularly weak feat.

*For the people dismissing Russ as a 'bottom tier Primarch", it's worth considering that Russ may have killed at least one other Primarch himself. Not a particularly weak feat.

It's also worth considering that even if that is the case, it's entirely possible the primarch he took out was the one that manifested the Emperor's awesome power to give really good back rubs. We just don't know.

Sarcasm aside, I don't know why people have such a hard time accepting Angron being able to whip his brothers into a paste. He is largely incompetent in every other regard. He's not tactically astounding, he doesn't have any fluffy qualities (logistics, inspiration, being a perpetual...), and he certainly can't turn invisible or render himself the size of a titan.

 Omegus wrote:

Chaos Gods are whispering to Lorgar how he is the Chosen one and their favorite and so very special and smart and handsome. He comes across one of the greatest champions of the god of war himself, and the meekest of the Primarchs "soundly defeats it". Just as planned.

But it was not planned.

"Kharnath has violated the accord!"

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"Kharnath has violated the accord!"

Beleiving the words spoken by the servant of the god of lies is truly a good idea.

I'd prefer that to speculating on some gak that was not even alluded to be the case, lol.

Lorgar ragestomped An'ggrath's face.