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Ive been playing dark eldar/eldar for several months now and I haven't been able to get any real wins with them. The best I've done is tie against a player of equal/better skill level/army. I've technicaly won one game against a tau player, but that's becuase they had no idea how to use the army, ran a terrible list , and is below my skill level.

My mettas' top players that I have the most trouble with run tau, space wolves, deamons flying circus, eldar, and broken necron flyer spam.
Mainly out of those listed its tau. I don't bother with necrons because of how broken they are.

Ild like to be able to win at least a portion of my games because not winning gets old after awhile. And losing isnt neccessarily the issue, its that generaly when i lose i end up getting my teeth kicked in and what makes it more tiresome is that I can see the game loss coming most of time after just one turn. Also I'm getting so burnt out on losing thay i keep leaning back and forth on either to sell all my dark elday and eldar or not. Ive spent several hundred building and magnetising them as I have 2500+ pts base worth of models all together for them. Not to mention custom battle foam trays. The only that keeps pushing me to stick with it is that I don't want all of what I've built to go to waist.

Any constructive advice with tactics/list builds and building would be much apprciated. If you need more info about how i play or my lists, just ask.

DEldar is a VERY competitive list right now, and not only for the plethora of deathstars available to you. Both armies complement each other really well, while elder lack cheap, high AV threats, elder get it in spades via ravagers and blasterborn. While Eldar have good AI up close, DE Venoms have great AI long range. DE benefit greatly from psy powers, but don't have any. You see where I am going.

Would you mind posting your Dark Eldar list? Because most allied detachments only go one way, either a Mantle Jetseer or a Jetseer in a unit of 6 jetbikes with either a fire prism, some warwalkers or a wraithknight. Dark Eldar lists are much more diverse. For example you could easily do a pure shooting army, using multiple ravagers and venom mounted troops. Alternitievly you could do shooty with a powerful assault element in a large beast pack lead by the Baron and a Shard Jetseer to grant fearless, this unit packs a PUNCH! I'd be glad to help you out, because a few mounths ago I was learning the ropes between DEldar.

The biggest problem with a DE/Eldar list is that its a DE/Eldar list. Both are not plug and play armies. You need to know what your doing and how each faction plays. DE always win big or loose big. Thus your feeling of getting your teeth kicked in. Its just how DE loose.

I guess it really depends on which army is your primary detachment, that will greatly depends on how the bulk of your list works.

Also you say you have 2500 points of army. How often do you change your list. I ask because having too much DE is actually bad. Its been my experience that a DE player needs one list. And you have to play that list over and over and over to get it to work. You cant change out units game after game and still win. Because none of the units are forgiving and you need consistency in tactics and unit ability's to know where to get them to strike to win. This information can only come through repetition.

Like ALEXisAWESOME said there are many deathstars available, however, you cant constantly change them up because they don't actually play the same, thus without repetition how will you know how to get the most out of any of them?

Here's one of my recent lists
Hq
Baron
Farseer

Troops
Warriors x 4
-venom
-5 warriors
Guardians x 2
-10 guardians
-wave serpant with scatter laser and +1 cover save

Fast attack
Vyper squadron
- 3 vypers
- 3 bright lances

Heavy support
Ravagers x 3
-flicker fields
Fire prisim

Fortification
Aegis defence line with quad gun

Total= 1845

I've also recently play tested the wraithknight in place of the fire prism against tau crisis suit army and I didn't pu a debt in it. All the suites kept jumping behind building after shooting and all I killed was one riptide by the end of the game. The tau would jump back so muvh to the point ild over extend my moves and all my DE boats would be exposed, marker lighted, and then destroyed. In hind sight, I should pressed my army around the table instead of trying to retain fireing lanes on most of his tau.

You can buy Night Shields on your Venoms/Ravagers so it isn't so easy to kill them.
Alway remember to add second Splinter Cannon on your Venoms.
Add Shuriken Cannons on your Wave Serpents.
Add a Holo Field on your Fire Prism.
All that can be added at a cost of one Vyper. They aren't really that good.

Baron is a grat champ but I can't see a place for him in this mech heavy list.
Who's firing the Quad Gun?
You can easily drop both, get a Haemonculus and upgrade Fire Prism into a Wraithknight.

I look at the list and for 1850 point it seems like you have nothing. I'd try making your elder primary and then throwing in a ravager from DE I would also use a wrath knight maybe throw a sun cannon and scatter laser on him. If the tau player is going to play like that I'd go for a tactical win sit back like him and let it come down to who has more objectives. If you have wave serpents I strongly suggest using them.

That's a good list, I don't see where your problem is other then inexperience. The only things I would suggest are to swap flickerfields to night shields (Its to easy to get a 5+ cover now, simply put the wave serpents in front) and then maybe drop a single venom and warrior content to give you 100pts to play with. With that you could give the farseer a jetbike with singing spear and mantle of the laughting god (did someone say 2+ re-rollable cover?) for 60pts and still have enough left over to give cannons the remaining 3 venoms for 30pts. that leaves you with 10 pts to spend, 15 if you count the 5 to make 1850. You know what slots into 15pts? Holofields for your Prism. I Agree that the Baron have no place to go, but he is a single model with a 2++ who is easy to hide, so you should give the warlord point away to easy unless you make it easy for them. Its a finesse army, practice makes perfect.

Agree about night shields. Flickerfields are nice against tau, vector strikes, eldar serpent shields etc. However, it is best to avoid being hit in the first place. Against armies with similar or shorter range(tau, crons) the night shields are a god send, allowing you to use speed and mobility to avoid being hit in the first place.

Also second a laughingseer.

I forgot to post that all my venoms and any time I take venoms, I always give them 2 splinter cannons.

@Macexor. I take baron for +1 to first turn roll. I also put baron on the quadgun to help against flyers with the barons BS6 hitting on 2s with twinlink. Then as a bonus I have a guardian squad with him help hold a back field objective behind the aegisline so that the unit gets stealth on top of the aegis 4+ cover save.

@Alex. I take the flickerfields over the night shields because more than half the metta uses units in either Eldar, IG, Tau, and other army psykers(rolling the right psy powers) that have ignore cover special rule.

As a side note I do try, when the players are at my local game shop, to play against players who are better than me. Ill play less skilled players when they ask, but its not really a real game...
So, that might be an issue with my win to loss ratio with DE/E, maybe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm considering swopping out something for warp spiders as they can deep strike and can tear into infantry/vehicle models during the shooting phase. In doing so theyll attract fire off of my othe key units. Any thoughts on that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ill post some other variation of lists that I've used and what happend when I used them soon.


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@jayden63. I have 3 ravager, 3 raiders, 5 venoms, 40+ warriors that can be used as truborn with special weapons if needed, 20+ kymera, 4 beast masters, 6 reavers, baron for my DE. For Eldar I have a base farseer, 2wave serpants, 1 fireprism, and 20 guardians. And to answer another of your questions I use DE as my primary.


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@alex and jayden63. What deathstars are your talking about for DE/E??? For DE there really isn't a true "deathstar", unless I'm missing something. I've tried a kymera star for awhile with baron and a farseer on a bike and they never really did anything because they either got shot to hell and were rendered combat ineffective or the game ended before I had chance to get into CC with them.

Pain engins don't really work as deathstars becuase they're slow. Beastmasters are more bullet magnets than anything. Hellion stars are point heavy and only T3.

Do you own any reaver jetbikes? I would have to say that they are one of my favorite units since 6th hit, and recently I actually stopped running ravagers so I could take two squads of them instead.

Imo I think they actually deliver better AT than ravagers via heat lances, plus they can cover the entire table in one turn for contesting objectives late game, while sniping people out of squads with blade vines. I would seriously consider trying to add at least one squad of them to your army.

The rest of your army seems pretty good, personally I prefer wracks over kabbies but i'm more of a get in your face de player so they just fit my play style more. Your meta definitely seems to run more competitive army's so that without a doubt is contributing to your loses, but it will just make you a better player in the long run so I would say to just keep with it.

My best advice would be to keep trying out new combinations of units in your army so you can learn how each of them compliment each other. That's what I did pretty much all of 5th edition with my de, and because of it I've learned how to run them with great success, so don't give up.

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:

@Alex. I take the flickerfields over the night shields because more than half the metta uses units in either Eldar, IG, Tau, and other army psykers(rolling the right psy powers) that have ignore cover special rule.

A 5+ save, whether cover or invul is not great against weight of fire, so when someone comes with a bunch of S6/7 weapons (that generally have a higher rate of fire than S8+ weapons) you would rather be out of range than getting a save.

Venoms have flickerfields included in their cost, but spending 10 pts on a nightshield means you out range other eldar (you shoot 36" while they're mostly stuck at 30") which means they have to move closer to you, expose themselves to more return fire, etc. someone earlier suggested dumping a vyper, and doing that will let you get some nightshields.

if you were going to run a single eldar heavy support choice, i think a prism would be low on my list. i think the nightspinner is better (and easy for you to make/magnetize if you have a fire prism already) and war walkers are best (outflank them to keep them safe until it's time to turn up and remove something) Nightspinners are S8 vs Tau, so instant kill crisis suits and don't need line of sight. War Walkers have masses of S6 firepower, some of it AP2 (scatter laser/starcannon)makes crisis suits cry, and if you get a round of shooting at a crisis squad, it's going to lose around 5~ 7 wounds (after failed saves, etc) both are good options

I've always wanted to try:
Full squad of Incubi led by Drazhar with Karandras tagging along. Sure it's not fluffy but come on

As far as death stars go dark eldar and eldar have the most options for death stars out there. With several unit options and several character interactions that lead to some of the best ones in the game.

What a good death star requires in varying levels is: durability, versatility, mobility, and board presence.

The most used character in regards to de/e death stars is the Baron. With stealth, the phantasm grenade launcher and hit and run he is a bag of tricks for a death star. Stealth helps with durability, grenades help because many of the dark eldar and eldar units lack grenades, and hit and run helps with mobility, as well as the main problem many people have with death stars which is getting tarpitted by weak throw away units.

The other characters that are usually vital for these elfin death stars are farseer support. THe powers available can really push the envelope in terms of hitting power and durability. Prescience letting you reroll all hits is huge, fortune letting you reroll all saves(2+ rerollable shadowfield is nasty), and invisibility can be game breaking against many armies rendering death stars immune to most general shooting(tau and eldar excluded). The shard of anaris on the seer is a great development with the new eldar codex letting you make the seer fearless. Fearless is a big deal for a good death star.

Fearless super killy combat characters. Eldar and dark eldar have access to quite a few of the nastiest characters in the game. Many of the phoenix lords are highly usable in this regard, not only are they killy but often bring some extra rules along with the aforementioned important fearless rule. But out of all of the characters the two that stand head and shoulders above the pack are Asdrubael Vect and Karandras. Vect is a total tool box with fearless, a haywire grenade, and 6 base attacks at i8 wounding anything in the game on a 3+ at ap3, the only things he doesnt kill are 2+ armor saves, and he has prefered enemy everything which passes onto his unit... nasty. Karandras is perhaps even stronger, with an i7 powerfist he has 5 base attacks at str 8 ap2, stealth for his unit, and monster hunter for his unit as well.

As far as units go there are several that to varying degrees operate as effective death stars.

At the bottom end is a group of 10 wraithguard or wraith blades. They are tough, have good str and versatility with either guns or the close combat options. Probably need baron, a farseer, and a killy character for full power options. Can also benefit from a spirit seer or several(INyaden) to both make them scoring(scoring death stars add versatility) and perhaps get them that 2+ armor save. Downside overall is speed, and low wound count.

Grotesques are next. Also tough with t5, feel no pain base, bunch of wounds and good str and number of attacks. Need baron and some other support, as there are some targets that they cant really hurt(dreadnoughts etc.) They are also slow, and have no real armor save.

The harlequin star was something run in early 6th when fortune was a guaranteed power. Might not be as worth it now. Its benefit is it already has hit and run base so more room for strictly super killing characters and not needing baron.

The two biggest stars though are the jetseer council. 2 seers, baron, lots of warlocks. Its fast, can target lots of things, is hard to pin down and with fortune and lots of other powers its hard to tangle with. Its been winning a lot of events on the east coast right now. Run by a player over here its very well respected.

Now I didnt leave that for last because I dont use it lol. I use a beast star. Ive used many variations of the star. From base in small games, to baron only, to baron and vect, to vect only. One seer, two seers, either is good. Fortune is great, invisibility might be better, both is super duper great. Cant use only kymerra it hurts the versatility and denies you the joy of razorwing flocks. Pre tau I was a 5 kymerra 8 razorwing guy, with tau and eldar now you need more kymerra to survive and cross the board, I use 10-15 and 6-4 razorwings now a days. Fearless is key with this unit, I use Vect because it amuses me to do so and he is extremely good for how I like to play. But a shard seer and baron could work as well for other people.

Overall the death star options add a bunch of other builds to the army. Eldar and dark eldar are tough to separate in my mind now. AS a whole they have a wealth of effective options when utilized together. With 3-4 effective death star builds that are all different, full mech mainly dark eldar with minimal support, full mech eldar with no or minimal de support, mixed mech either way, and full foot either way. Its a great time to be an eldar dark eldar player. At the battle for salvation tournament http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550182.page the top 3 armies by battle points were all eldar base armies. 2 of them were allied to dark eldar, and all were highly different lists.

Winner:
Farseer, Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spear (Doom, Death Mission, Fortune)

Farseer, Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Shard of Anaris (Prescience, Precognition, Misfortune)

10 Warlocks on Bikes, 4 Spears

5 Squads of 3 Windrider Jetbikes

2 Squads of 6 Swooping Hawks

2 Wraithknights

Skyshield Landing Pad

Baron

5 Kabalite Warriors


Second Place
Farseer with Spear (Shriek, Terrify, Invisibility)

5 squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents with Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser, and Ghostwalk Matrix

3 Squads of 6 Swooping Hawks

Rune Priest with Melta bombs and Runic Axe (Jaws, Lightning)

Lone Wolf w/Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

8 Grey Hunters with one Melta gun

Land Raider Redeemer w/Multi-Melta

Third best battle points

Farseer bike, spirit stone of anathalin

Farseer

3 Jetbikes

3 Jetbikes

20 Guardians - 2 bightlances

Wraithknight

Wraithknight

Vect

20 Warriors - 2 splinter cannons, sybarite(PGL)

20 Warriors - 2 splinter cannons, sybarite

5 Beast Masters - 10 kymerra, 6 razorwing flocks

@ordosean. I fail to see how wraks, grotesques, harlequins would ever make death stars. Compared to other umits in other armies they don't even qualify as a death star. Low wounds, average to low toughness, low saves, and low speed equals bullet magnet at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I did some tweeking to one of my base lists and here is what I changed with everyone's suggestions.

My core part of my list is

HQ
Baron
Farseer

TROOPS
warriors x 4
-5 warriors
-venom with 2 splinter cannons

Guardians x 2
-10 guardians
-wave serpant
-holo fields
-scatter laser

FAST ATTACK
warp spiders
-9 warp spiders

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravagers x 3
-flickerfields

Fireprism
-holofield

FORT
Aegis line with quad gun

Use baron for better first turn chances in the back field on the quadgun providing stealth for the guardian unit attached on an objective in the back field. Use the farseer to cast power on evryone providing support from the backfield. Use the warspiders to deep strike behind opponents backfield and cause them to react instead of following their plan. Venoms anti infantry. Prism and serpants as anti vehicle/support.

Thoughts?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
1850 list by the way.

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:
@ordosean. I fail to see how wraks, grotesques, harlequins would ever make death stars. Compared to other umits in other armies they don't even qualify as a death star. Low wounds, average to low toughness, low saves, and low speed equals bullet magnet at best.

I never mentioned wracks.

With harlequins I did caveat that it was more with the early 6th edition with the older eldar codex where you could guarantee fortune and there were no tau or new eldar yet. Because harlequins then in both codex's and now in only the dark eldar one have stealth and shrouded so 2+ cover saves with rerolls are actually really hard to deal with in a pre tau world. Catch bullets just fine.


Grotesques have high toughness and high wound count. And speed is all relative once they hit and run. Also I listed them as one of the lower quality choices for death star mostly due to their speed issues. And yeah they have bad armor, but there are lots of psychic powers that can make up for that to an extent. Invisibility gives them a 2+ cover save, divination could give them a 4+ invul, put a phoenix lord in the front and if you have fortune watch him pass rerollable 2+ saves all day. Take 10 Inyaden spirit seers and see how many protects or strength buffs you can roll, or if you are feeling slow stack those run modifiers to get easy turn 2 charges.

None of these units operate in a vacuum. They all need the right combination of character support to function. Thats my point that with the functionality of the different eldar and dark eldar characters that some quality death stars can be created. Now if you disagree thats fine by me, it wont hurt my feelings, I was simply giving some options and evidence to refute a statement that I thought was false about there being no dark eldar death stars.

I mean the only unit in any codex that operates as a death star without any support is paladins... so thats one unit, in one codex.

There's more than paladins. There's nob bikers, DA deathwing knights, death company is arguable, DA ravenwing knights, DA deathwing shooting deathstar, deamon prince flying circus although theyre better when they all become support characters with psy poweres, csm terminator stars, deamon slaanesh chariot star.

Unfortunately I can't comment on iyanden eldar due GW making all the expansion army books for the factions that have them difficult to get in my LGS. And as such ththose books are not allowed in our tournaments because of low availability which would cause possible issues with players having an unfair advantage over others using the same favtion with its expansion.

On the grotesques, they have 3 wounds but have a 6+ save. The unit can then be buff via psy powers for a 4+ invul. And others how ever if they rely on a raider to get them in close then the odds of CC are just as good as an ork mob in a truck. If the raider gets shot at its more often then not going to get shot down. Then theyre foot slogging. Hit and run doesn't count for anything if they not in CC. Sure they have the wounds to take a few vollies but there's a lot of ignore cover high Strength shots out there now. The grotesque star with buffing characters still reminds me of a mega nob star and that's why I don't really consider it a death star.

Although I could see them being used with duke deepstriking behind cover in a raider or venom in the opponents backfield behind cover. Hopefully you rolled a direct hit on the scatter dice and then try and not shot up that turn. Afterwards move 6, jump out six and assault. More of a gamble than anything. I may try it later, but a unit of warp spiders that deepstrike with baron can lay the hurt down in shooting and then have at least a 3+ armor overall and a stealth.

tbh, you can still easely make a Harley star:

even with Eldar Harlequin's, add a farseer (get a chance on fortune), Karandras (stealth), Spiritseer (shrouding).

they are fast and mean, you can still soak the ignore cover wounds with Karandras.

then again you could take the Dark Eldar one, add or whatever beaststick you want and add double farseer, i promise you he won't like it...