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Just a question about R'alai warlord trait.

His warlord trait gives him Preferred Enemy (independent character).
Does this mean he has Preferred Enemy when shooting at units only made of independent characters (e.g. a unit like The Eight or an independent character on its own), or any unit with an independent character in it

What our local understands is that PE works against a unit containing at least someone who it applies to (so PE:SM works against an IG unit with a SM in it as well as a SM unit with IG in it)

So, by similar strain, a single IC in the team triggers PE.

That is not what the actual rules say, however.

PE works when attacking your preferred enemy. You don't attack models (outside a challenge), you attack units. Unless it's a unit of ICs the rule won't benefit when shooting at a unit.

Really if it is only ICs on their own, then it is a really bad warlord trait, considering that ICs hardly spend any time outside a unit.

RAW, rigeld2 is right, I believe.

I'd never play it that way, though. In any competitive event I ran, I'd think it was pretty reasonable to assume that it was intended to work against any unit containing at least one IC.

I believe this one was addressed in the Forge World Frequently Asked Questions because it raised so many questions at the time. Sadly I can't find the information off hand any more, researching Frequently Asked Questions was never my strong point to begin with, so I do hope someone out there with more google-foo will be able to track down the document instead. I do know it was a very poorly worded answer that effectively came down to 'only if you can show the wound will be allocated to an Independent Character' which ignores all the problems surrounding preferred enemy, 'mixed' units and the fact the rules do not function to allow us to attack individual models. Instead of addressing the problem, they basically shrugged and said for us to figure it during wound allocation which is already too late....

However when I look for this Frequently Asked Question answer again I find alternative rules for this unit, lacking the preferred enemy special rule, but I do not know how accurate they are.

JinxDragon wrote:
I believe this one was addressed in the Forge World Frequently Asked Questions because it raised so many questions at the time. Sadly I can't find the information off hand any more, researching Frequently Asked Questions was never my strong point to begin with, so I do hope someone out there with more google-foo will be able to track down the document instead. I do know it was a very poorly worded answer that effectively came down to 'only if you can show the wound will be allocated to an Independent Character' which ignores all the problems surrounding preferred enemy, 'mixed' units and the fact the rules do not function to allow us to attack individual models. Instead of addressing the problem, they basically shrugged and said for us to figure it during wound allocation which is already too late....

However when I look for this Frequently Asked Question answer again I find alternative rules for this unit, lacking the preferred enemy special rule, but I do not know how accurate they are.

I guess it could be summed up as "if the hit will hit an IC, than that hit has preferred enemy" (and if the hit will hit the hit, than the hit will be hitting and will count as having hit) It will only work if the preferred enemy is the closest model or you precision shot it.

rigeld2 CANT be right for a simple reason.

His logic fits (fits as in theoretically possible.but can be true or false.) into the specific case of IC, but not other cases of PE.

Lets take another PE and try to figure out from him, PE: SM for example.

Do you gain the benefits when aiming at a squad of fire warriors with a chapter master attached?
How about a bunch of space marines with a crisis commander?
And if its just the commander and the chapter master?

The CORRECT answer must cover each of these cases.
Therefor, the only two options are:
A-a unit consisting of at least one of the preferred enemy.
B-a unit made entirely of the preferred enemy.

And I am inclined to believe A is the real one, because otherwise you get a silly situation of having a unit from codex X hide in a massive blob of units from Y and by such protect them from preferred enemy rule.

 BoomWolf wrote:
rigeld2 CANT be right for a simple reason.

His logic fits (fits as in theoretically possible.but can be true or false.) into the specific case of IC, but not other cases of PE.

Lets take another PE and try to figure out from him, PE: SM for example.

Sure!

Do you gain the benefits when aiming at a squad of fire warriors with a chapter master attached?

As the SM is a member of the unit for all rules purposes, no. You're attacking a Tau unit not a SM unit.

How about a bunch of space marines with a crisis commander?

As the Commander is a member of the unit for all rules purposes, yes. You are attacking a SM unit.

And if its just the commander and the chapter master?

It depends on who joined who.

The CORRECT answer must cover each of these cases.

My answer does cover each of these cases.

Therefor, the only two options are:
A-a unit consisting of at least one of the preferred enemy.
B-a unit made entirely of the preferred enemy.

And I am inclined to believe A is the real one, because otherwise you get a silly situation of having a unit from codex X hide in a massive blob of units from Y and by such protect them from preferred enemy rule.

There's another option you're ignoring because it doesn't fit your agenda:
C-Whatever the target is determines if you get PE. If the target is not an IC, you do not get PE(IC) benefits.

I have been playing it in a weird way that if wound allocation would hit an IC, than he can use it on the shots that affect the IC (rolling the hits one at a time). I also use it if I precision shot an IC. The problem with this method is his pieplate, basically does Preferred enemy affect that or not.

rigeld, your interpretation of how units are classified, while in theory possible, is not supported nor negated by anything in the rules.

That's the issue here, there is no clear ruling in the rules-not about how PE works on units that partially fits the target, nor on how you classify a unit by its parts. (and this causes issues with other units as well. for example the sniper drone team, who NATURALLY consists of both jet pack models and infantry models, is it a jet pack unit?)

It is entirely possible, that a unit of fire warriors attached by a chapter master is BOTH a tau unit and a space marine unit at the same time. in fact that's how we regard it around our local.

We just CANT know for sure until it gets properly FAQed.

This leads us to being forced into RAI, and it seems that each of us read the "intended" differently.

 BoomWolf wrote:
rigeld, your interpretation of how units are classified, while in theory possible, is not supported nor negated by anything in the rules.

It actually is supported in the rules. Unless you think that a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines isn't a C:SM unit.

That's the issue here, there is no clear ruling in the rules-not about how PE works on units that partially fits the target, nor on how you classify a unit by its parts. (and this causes issues with other units as well. for example the sniper drone team, who NATURALLY consists of both jet pack models and infantry models, is it a jet pack unit?)

So some units can have issues, that means that we just throw our hands in the air and ignore rules?

It is entirely possible, that a unit of fire warriors attached by a chapter master is BOTH a tau unit and a space marine unit at the same time. in fact that's how we regard it around our local.

No, it's not possible according to the rules. If you are regarding it as anything but simply a Tau unit then you are ignoring the fact that the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Sure if you want to ignore that part of the IC rules then there's no answer. But then you're ignoring rules and can't really make a rules based argument, now can you?