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Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




London, UK

Hi, I've been meaning to start a thread on this topic for a few days now. But I've had trouble putting my problem into words. I read this on a blog yesterday and it sums up my problems exactly:

teivel wrote:The rule wording on void shields is terrible. There's the issue of whether or not a blast scores multiple hits. Also an issue is the fact that it says once collapsed the rest of your shots hit the original target. So what happens if 4 lascannons from a havoc squad hit a unit, and the first roll collapses the shield? What happens to the other 3 hits? Since a units shooting is resolved at the same time, you could argue that the 3 shots would also hit the shield and not the unit. But how it is worded you could also argue that the shots get through. I don't plan on using them till GW gives us a more definitive explanation as to how they work. I can already see the vehement arguments that will result from the aweful rule description.


teivel wrote: Its an unclear contradiction on what happens to the rest of the hits. Reason being that all hits from a unit happen at the same time no matter what order you roll them by brb. It is also unclear on blasts. A blast against a single armor 12 would be only 1 hit, but it says "hits" are resolved on the shield instead, thus insinuating that a blast that gets 5 hits on a unit would instead be 5 hits on the shield. It is only clear in your interpretation, but does not mean it is in others. It is very unclear when you take into account the brb rules of hit and wound/pen allocation.


You can find the rest here: http://daemons40k.blogspot.ca/2013/12/voidshields-return-to-light-vehicle-spam.html#more

Personally I've just started taking an all melee list to get around Void Shields, but I still find my lack of complete understanding of these rules quite frustrating.

Can anyone clear this up? Or is it a matter for an FAQ?
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

It's a matter for the FAQ. It was under discussion not too long ago and if you scour the first few pages you should be able to find it. It basically comes down to:

All shooting is simultaneous she thus all shooting from a unit would hit the shield; and
It is treated like an extra model so each shot is resolved individually otherwise the "further shots hit the original target" means nothing.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

While I agree with HappyJew that it needs a Frequently Asked Question answer, I do not think it is actually broken from a Rule as Written point of view. The word further should be replaced with remaining, as it does not change the mechanics of the rule in any way but does get the 'intent' through a lot more clearly. Even the group that argues all shots are resolved against the shield would be satisfied with that one change. It would allow us to state that any remaining shots, after the shield drops, has permission to be 'reassigned' back to the original target. I don't think this fits the mechanics they where attempting to create, but the end result would be identical and it would be far easier rules to follow and obey.

So let me try and restate what I did in the other thread:
The argument that this Special Rule would trigger on the first successful hit, be resolved, and then further 'To Hit Rolls' would be carried can be supported in the black and white world of Rules as Written.

This is because rules, special or otherwise, do follow a sequence of events no matter how 'simultaneous' they might seem. Even in cases of conflicts there is always a means to determine the order they are to be resolved in. Whenever two rules want to be applied at the same moment in time the rules involved will inform us how to resolve the conflict. They will either tell us when which one triggers first in the sequence of events and should they fail to do so, then the player whom's turn it is decides the order they are resolved in. Even in situations where resolving the first rule will effect the outcome of the second rule, we still resolve the first to completion thanks to this rule.

Therefore, from a Rules as Written standpoint, nothing can be resolved 'simultaneously.'

This is why some arguments can be solved by a 'time line debate' and most of these arguments involve some sort of sequence of events in which a collection of rules can be found, and then an outside rule injects itself into this sequence. Should this sound familiar it is because a Special Rule found on the shield generator is injecting itself into one of the most obvious examples of a sequence: Shooting. The way these rules inject themselves is using something known in the business as a 'trigger.' This trigger will inform us of the exact moment in which the rule in question must be evoked, informing us when we need to complete the injected rule before we return to the original sequence.

So we shall take a good look at how this words for the Projector Void Shield, which I do keep pointing out is a Special Rule for a reason. After all, it is not the shield generator your resolving the shots 'against' but the Special Rule itself, and when it would trigger in the shooting sequence itself: As soon as you successfully hit your opponent. That simply leaves the question of 'when is your target hit,' which some people do answer differently. For me, it is as soon as you successfully complete the very first Roll you make, regardless of the fact you might have more 'To Hit' rolls to resolve.

Why? Because each Roll, like each rule, is separate to each other no matter how many we dice are rolled collectively!

The terminology Roll is defined right at the beginning of the book because this fact is very important to keep in mind. No matter how many dice you are rolling collectively, each individual dice is a separate Roll. The only exception to this is when we encounter the good old XD6 as that is it's very purpose, to inform us how many dice are in a single Roll. For example charging through terrain is a single roll involving two dice. Even in situations where permission exists to roll multiple 'Rolls" at the same time, we are always informed that we need a way to tell the rolls apart. The most likely reason as to why we need to tell the Rolls apart happens to be whenever different Special Rules might be in effect. Even page 15, To Hit Rolls which is as 'simultaneous' as you get, go to great lengths to inform us we might even be required to roll each dice individually in order to keep the groups separate!

There are a few problems with the above argument that I do know of, but the core of it is still very interesting to consider. I also have yet to see any real good argument that a Special Rule can not trigger on the very first successful Roll if other Rolls are to be carried out. This would make the wording they used of further hits completely accurate, as further To Hit Rolls need to be resolved and therefore additional successful hits are still possible and will need to be resolved against the original target. Sadly, all of this could of been avoided by just using the word remaining hits because then it wouldn't matter which outlook on the problem is correct as the results would be identical.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what, I want to give a shortened version of my theory to trim off some more veritable:

For this argument, lets say we do roll all the To Hit Rolls simultaneously, as there is one thing that could trump my above theory and while it would go against every clear intent it would be Rules as Written worthy. The end result of using this method will be a number of To Hit results and for this theory lets state that they are all hits and you where the shooting player. These hits would then need to be resolved against the Special rule, I will admit that, but I am failing to see anything giving us permission to resolve them all at once. As the player that did the shooting, and facing multiple special rules conflicting on the time line, it is up to you to now decide which one we resolve first. Then you need to decide which one we resolve Second, Third, Fourth, And So Forth.

Now we are back to the situation where you finish resolving one Special Rule, which states 'any further hits' are resolved against the original unit should there be X shield remaining, before you resolve the next Hit.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/12/20 22:30:39


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
 
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