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I'm wondering what others' thoughts on the daemon army is (not talking game play). Do you guys think they're neat? Do you think they're evil? lame?

I know people see them as evil, but honestly thinking about it the imperium seems the most evil to me... They sacrifice souls to keep the emperor alive in his vegetative state. Also, I was looking at the arco-flagellants and how twisted and demented their surgerys are to the "heretics". Remember, a heretic to them could be someone simply having a different paradigm than someone else. Technically the majority of us on this forum according to the imperiums standards would be considered heretics.

There are no good guys in 40k.

As Nietzsche said, "When one gazes into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you" and "When one fights monsters, take care lest one become a monster himself". These are lessons the Imperium never learned... or, perhaps, they did learn them, but they were left with no alternative.

The setting is grimdark because that is the nature of the storyline. The Imperium has to be as terrible as it is because those are the lengths the demands of the storyline have placed on it to go. Every terrible deed, every terrible action, every terrible situation that anyone finds themselves in is the result of the absolutely best possible choice made previously in almost every situation.

There were a couple of threads on the matter a month ago.

Here is the biggest: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/560992.page

Do you think a commissar reduced to firing on his own men enjoy it? What about the priest who has cared for his people reduced to reporting one of his members for questionable activities? What about the general who has to decide which 10K of his men have to die so the other million can live?

The choices men make arent easy as many people seem to think. Each choice isnt a choice of right or wrong but a choice of cost.

If the commissar doesn't shoot his vox man for getting 3 orders wrong resulting in the loss of half the company then how much can other men get away with? Not killing that Vox man could have serious implications on the effectiveness on your unit. Or the priest, he could ignore the man but what if the man accidentally summons a demon and his town get raped and slaughtered.

The list goes on but in my opinion what the humans are doing they are doing because they have to. And nobody enjoys it, but its better than getting raped, killed and tortured by the enemies around them.

Personally, if in knew the horrors of the galaxy and the local governor said we have to die so the billions on the planet have a chance of living. I wouldn't see that as evil. Its not good but its not evil. And the commissar standing behind you with a gun is probably a nice guy you could have a drink with if the situation was better.

The difference for demons? They find it fun. No remorse, no guilt. They are evil without choice (maybe?) but both sides are doing it out of the need to survive.

I would place the imperium under neutral.

Daemons are more akin to a force of nature than an evil race of beings.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Daemons are more akin to a force of nature than an evil race of beings.

hence the evil without choice.

In the Gaunt novels, there's a neverborn bodyguard that a fair minded person might even qualify as "good".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Eisenhorn's pal might qualify too.

The thing that I find most interesting about Daemons in 40k is that they are all prime emotions driven to their extremes. The root of each chaos faction isn't necessarily 'evil', but they embody the absolute excess of that emotion. They are a parody of reality that takes what's there, and cranks it up to 11 (interestingly, the same way that 40k itself is a parody of reality and cranks it up to 11)

Django_Unchained wrote:
I'm wondering what others' thoughts on the daemon army is (not talking game play). Do you guys think they're neat? Do you think they're evil? lame?

I know people see them as evil, but honestly thinking about it the imperium seems the most evil to me... They sacrifice souls to keep the emperor alive in his vegetative state. Also, I was looking at the arco-flagellants and how twisted and demented their surgerys are to the "heretics". Remember, a heretic to them could be someone simply having a different paradigm than someone else. Technically the majority of us on this forum according to the imperiums standards would be considered heretics.

I like them because they are a mirror that looks back. They are merely a reflection of all that we are. They are not good nor are they bad for they are abstract... they are dreams and emotions swirled into a form that floats around and then hurtles into the real realm. Before the war in the heavens, the warp was a peaceful afterlife, a heaven in a sense. Warfare, using it for warfare, and more then twisted it, ruptured it. Awoke the things that slumbered and began the descent of heaven to hell as races continued onto decadent pleasures and extremes. The 4 gods aren't really truly sentient. What they represent is emotions of human beings. (ignoring the redacting) there are many gods. Many minor, weak, the ones that will come into might and then fade away. They are the tides that sweep along to represent something in the real realm. The 4 gods of chaos are the mightiest of the warp denizens as they feed upon key elements of the real realm. One is Hate, rage, violence, bloodshed, and martial honor. Another is Lust, greed, pleasure, pain, excess, perfection. Another Ambition, plotting, change, psychic powers, and hope. And a final that represents Mortality, morbidity, disparity, resignation, and acceptance. Each one holds positive aspects and in a brighter realm they would be paragons of hope to mortals although also representing dark vices. But 40k is not a realm of such hope, no it is the realm of only war. In the grim dark era, the positive aspects are hidden, obscured, and are represented so rarely because in the real realm the despotic nature of the times favors such grim elements. And so the gods have been fed these negative emotions and thus regurgitate daemons that commit attrocities with the sole focus of growing by way of reflecting what they are embodied by, the lies, deceits, dark ambitions, and treachery of all mortals.

Seconding StarTrotter. Demons are the personification of the mental state of the 40k universe. They are just the mirror image of what is there in the real world. Also, it's not only humans but at least the eldar as well being mirrored by the warp. Orks, Bugs and Fishies don't get to play along afaik.

Very interesting responses. As someone who's only been in the hobby a year and a half, there's still much for me to learn fluff wise...

Definitely am taking a lot away from this discussion. Keep it going gents!

I do wish Kelly hadn't toned down the Warp so much. They removed all the Neutral stuff, all the warp-creatures that aren't daemons, and made it so God-Specific.

I think demons play very well into the lore, and i love them, i don't play or have any interest in them. but i think they're pretty awesome, i do often read about the chaos planes though, and so i often find myself borrowing my friend's daemons codex for a good read

Chaos Marines and Daemons are the most alluring armies to me, however I have a certain avoidance of anything so seethingly evil, and thus, Daemonhunters was my first army.