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I've read a few of the posts on high elves here on the forums and nearly every single one says that minimum core is good. Which is a shame because I like the core units but there we are. I've developed, with the aid of Battlescribe, three 1500 point lists. I'm not sure which to use, all of them require some form of investment but not much, and I'm hoping people can tell me which is preferred, or which is the least hated, the reasons for it and any changes you'd make and why. Despite the points I've collected, I'm still a very new gamer. What you might call: more money than sense. Here's to hoping that changes with your help

Option 1:
Archmage, Level 4, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon - with Spearmen
Noble, Shield, BSB, BotWD - with Spearmen
Archers, 12x, Musician
Archers, 12x, Musician
Spearmen, 48x, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame
Swordmasters, 12x, Bladelord, Sword of Might, Standard Bearer, Razor Standard
2x Bolt Thrower

Horde of spearmen to hold the centre because 50 attacks? Swordmasters, hard-hitting flanking unit. Archers and Bolt Throwers provide very heavy covering fire.

Option 2:
Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Feedback Scroll - with Spearmen
Mage, Level 2, Life, Dispel Scroll - with Swordmasters
Noble, Shield, BSB, BotWD - with Spearmen
Archers, 10x, Musician
Spearmen, 38x, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Swordmasters, 12x, Bladelord, Sword of Might, Standard Bearer, Razor Standard
2x Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle, Shredding Talons, Swiftsense

Smaller core, extra mage to turn the swordmasters into tougher, hard-hitting flanking units. Great Eagle as chaff/harassing unit for taking out lone mages or war machines.

Option 3:
Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Feedback Scroll, Ironcurse Icon - with Spearmen
Mage, Level 2, Life, Dispel Scroll - with Swordmasters
Noble, Shield, Spear, BSB, BotWD - with Spearmen
Archers, 10x, Musician
Spearmen, 25x, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Shadow Warriors, 10x, Shadowwalker, Reaver Bow
Swordmasters, 12x, Bladelord, Swrd of Might, Standard Bearer, Razor Standard
2x Bolt Thrower

Again, the extra mage to help with magic and making those swordmasters tougher. Minimum core (375pts) with shadow warriors replacing the great eagle as the harassing unit. Also, having longbows and higher BS they perform better than a unit of archers. Noble has a spear in this setup to round up the points to 1500. Same reason ironcurse icon is in this and the previous option.

Please let me know how you think I did

I think setup #3 is the optimum, but I would drop the Bolt throwers to 1 or 0, and increase Archers or Shadow warriors. Generally when I play HE and have only 1 mage with High Magic, I have only 1 shooting unit, so it can benefit from Hand of Glory spell. Also consider including Sisters with Handmaiden, and casting Hand of Glory/Walk between Worlds on them.

It's a toss-up between options #2 or #3, but both could do with quite a bit of work.

I'm not exactly sure on your stance on minimum core. As you rightly said, it's always best to go minimum. If you like the Core models and want to include more, that's fine, let me know, but, for now, I'll make suggestions assuming you're happy to conform to it.

In either option, you need to sort out your characters. Feedback Scroll is largely pointless, unless you have a specific reason to use it. Like many new players, you're suffering from shinymagicitemsitis, and including more magic items that is necessary, or at the least the wrong ones. If you can fit him in - which you can - your Lvl4 should always be rocking the Book of Hoeth, that is a good Magic Item. I'd advise taking a ward save of some sorts on him, but, at such a small points level, a lot of that comes down to personal preference and playstyle. Drop your Hero Mage down to Level 1. If you're taking Life, you'll do it for Earth Blood. 35pts isn't worth the small chance of getting Flesh to Stone, which is really the only other useful spell on a Lvl2 Life wizard, who lives in the shadow (pun intended) of his Lvl4 companion. As for your BSB, BotWD is great, but you want to be taking it on a unit standard bearer, otherwise, in combat, your enemy is simply going to pick out that T3 4+ model and kill him. It's almost always best to forego the Magic Banner and go defensive. Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, Dragon Helm and Heavy/Dragon Armour is usually the best way to go.

For option two, I'd advise minimum core (spending the points on more Swordmasters), as you may well have guessed. With only 375 points to spend, I'd consider going either all archers or all Spearmen (though some Reavers/Helms would be fine in tandem with Archers). The reason is that, if you split, you end up with Spearmen blocks lacking in numbers. They should really be 35+ strong. Also, put the Standard of Discipline on your Spearmen, should you decide to take them. This way, if you put your Archmage there, it will effectively give you a Ld 10 General. If you do this though, I'd recommend even more a Ward Save of some sort on your Archmage, since he'll be in much more danger.

More shinymagicitemsitis on your Swordmasters. On your Bladelord, you've paid 20pts for gaining re-rolls (sometimes) and losing a point of strength. Not really worth it. The Razor Standard is great actually, so don't worry about that, you'll see it in many lists, but here, it's not so useful. With such a small unit (as it is), 12 may not see combat, at which point the Razor Standard has become a waste of points. You'd be better off with 3 extra Swordmasters, which will still add hitting power, but also will help defensively. If you like Magic Banners, the Banner of Eternal Flame is a decent option, but I prefer my Swordmaster units to have no upgrades save for a musician. In option #3, drop the Shadow Warriors as they, are, sadly, one of the bad units in the book and lack the ability to cause any significant impact. Drop them for more Swordmasters and some Eagles. Eagles are far better chaff and war machine hunters. There is also the option of switching all the Swordmasters for White Lions, and I'd advise this if you went for an all-archer core. However, Swordmasters work just as well and are far cheaper, monetarily, to get hold of too. So it's up to you.

Finally, on option #2, drop the trimmings on your Eagle. Keep them cheap, and try and squeeze in a second.

Hope this helps, if you have any more questions, feel free to ask!

Thanks both for your input. I have quite a few spearmen and archers at the moment which is why I was looking towards the core (about 46 archers, 20 sea guard and 43 spearmen. I found them cheap on ebay...don't judge me ) I have 3 bolt throwers, but 1 is missing a crew which is why I was throwing 2 of them into the lists. I quite like the bolt throwers because they seem to provide heavy support for taking down the single big units or the horde units. I'm not overly attached to any of this, however, I do like having money so I'd like to work close to what I have and buy a few extra polishes.

The extra swordmasters, I have 22 in total, so I'm quite happy to put a few more of those together. The shadow warriors, I thought htey looked cool lore-wise but otherwise I'd have to agree that they're not as good as some of the other units in the army book.
The feedback scroll I took because it looked like a decent way of removing an enemy caster from the game, but I've yet to play or test it so if book of hoeth is better? I'll rock with that
I was a little confused Shadow by your comment that I should take BotWD on a unit standard bearer...because the Spearmen can't take it and you're not recommending a standard bearer on the swordsmen....so where should it go?
Also, Sword of Might adds +1 Strength so your re-rolls comment...again...confused

Anyway, taking all of this on board comes to:

Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation - with an Archer unit
Mage, Life, Dispel Scroll - with Sword Masters
Noble, Heavy Armor, BSB, Shield of the Myrwyrm, Sword of Might, (Can I take Dragonhelm as well? Battlescribe says not) - with Sword Masters
Archers, 18x, Musician
Archers, 18x, Musician
Swordmasters, 22x, Musician, Bladelord, Standard Bearer, BotWD
1x Bolt Thrower
2x Great Eagle
10 points to spare. Extra archer? Extra command? Magic item? Or 2x 5pt upgrade on eagles?

With this setup I would have everything but the eagles. I'm not sure about the Eagles as I wouldn't know how to use them properly, but I could always learn. Also I don't have any so I'd need to buy them. Not a huge issue, just if there are alternatives I'd love to hear them. Is it worth dropping some of the command in Sword Masters, (Standard Bearer and Musician) and getting the upgrades on the Eagles?
How do I protect the mages with this setup?
And as I note there, can I take the Dragonhelm AND Shield of the Myrwyrm? Only I've been using Battlescribe which doesn't seem to think so.


===Edited because I noticed a few things I could improve on having re-read your comments===
2nd edit. BSB can't have magic banner and magic items.

The BSB can't take two peices of magic armour. So it's shield of the Merwyrm OR dragonhelm. Go shield every time. He also can't take any other magic items if he takes a magic standard, so drop the banner.

I wouldn't advise Life on a level 1. Earth blood is going to get negated reasonably often by flaming attacks. Would Wildform, iceshard blizzard or metals signature spell be of more use? Life really needs a lvl 4 in order to get throne of vines off.

From what I have read the BSB can't take magic items if he has a magic standard. However the battle standard itself is not magical. This allows him to take the items outlined above.
If I can't take the dragonhelm is it worth moving the mage back to level 2? I feel life is strong as a method of keeping the swordmasters alive. The archmage I am torn between Shadow, Metal and High Magic. However the ward save from high magic would be more useful on the swordmasters would it not? Still they have botwd so maybe not.
I could drop an eagle, give the sword of might to the bladelord, pick up an ogre blade on the BSB making the two of them very killy indeed. Bumping the mage up to level 2 rounds out the 1500. Still not convinced by the eagle though. Do you grab 2 and just send them like an arrow at the enemies war machine or what? I will think some more on how I want my army to play.
Please keep up the advice and include your reasons please I'm learning a lot.

Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation - with an Archer unit / On his own?
Mage, Life, Dispel Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar - with Sword Masters
Noble, Heavy Armor, BSB, Shield of the Myrwyrm, Sword of Might - with Sword Masters
Archers, 18x, Musician
Archers, 18x, Musician
Swordmasters, 22x, Musician, Bladelord, Biting Blade, Standard Bearer, BotWD
1x Bolt Thrower
2x Great Eagle

My thoughts so far. I like the 2 mages, I'm playing High Elves, magic is good. For me lore-wise anyway. I like the archers, I like being able to take things out at range, so I'm still a little wary about only having 1 bolt thrower, but I'm prepared to rock with it. Swordmasters, big killy unit. I like them lore-wise and game-wise and I can appreciate the beefier BSB. However, I'm a little unsure of whether to go this way (hard to kill BSB) or drop the magic items and the crown of atrazar on the mage (really only did that to make up points...not massively necessary) and grab a razor standard. Having this and BotWD on the Swordmasters will not only make them really hard to kill, but incredibly damaging themselves. With my mages I should be able to keep the BSB out of trouble and the bladelord can accept challenges in the stead of the BSB so where's the danger exactly?
Still not sure about the eagles. What I've been going for so far is a ranged harass/kill/counter army where I shoot them with arrows and if they get close, I counter charge with swordmasters and wreck them. Or if they try to play defensive I go on the offensive with the swordmasters and the archers/bolt throwers provide support with the mages.

===Edit just a few more ideas being edited in and bandied about====

atreides237 wrote:The extra swordmasters, I have 22 in total, so I'm quite happy to put a few more of those together. The shadow warriors, I thought htey looked cool lore-wise but otherwise I'd have to agree that they're not as good as some of the other units in the army book.

Yeah, it is a shame. I too love the Shadow Warrior models, but I don't think I'd ever use them in-game.

atreides237 wrote:The feedback scroll I took because it looked like a decent way of removing an enemy caster from the game, but I've yet to play or test it so if book of hoeth is better? I'll rock with that

Just do some mental maths. The feedback scroll is 50points. Statistically, even if the enemy caster 6-dices a spell, you're only wounding him twice. Then he still gets a Ward Save. Many casters take the Tali of Preservation, which means that's only one would suffered. On the other hand, the Book of Hoeth allows you to re-roll a single dice for every spell casting or dispelling attempt. For only 5 points more.

atreides237 wrote:I was a little confused Shadow by your comment that I should take BotWD on a unit standard bearer...because the Spearmen can't take it and you're not recommending a standard bearer on the swordsmen....so where should it go?

I was suggesting you not take it at all. BotWD is a great item, but there's a time and a place to take it. I taken, it should always be taken on a unit standard bearer. However, Swordmasters don't really benefit from it much, as they operate much better in smaller units where the BotWD's added survivability doesn't really come into play. Most armies have enough non-magical firepower to elimiate a unit of Swordmasters, if they really wanted to. BotWD really comes into its own on a unit of 30+ White Lions. So, unless you know you'll be playing Daemons or Skaven a lot, I'd just leave it at home.

atreides237 wrote:Also, Sword of Might adds +1 Strength so your re-rolls comment...again...confused

Taking the Sword of Might means you don't use your GW, hence you don't have ASL and can use ASF, which gives you re-rolls most of the time. However, you're much better off saving 20 points, forgetting about ASF, and using the +2S from the GW. Forget the idea of any magic weapon on the Bladelord. It doesn't stack with the GW's +2S, if that's what you were thinking...

atreides237 wrote:With this setup I would have everything but the eagles. I'm not sure about the Eagles as I wouldn't know how to use them properly, but I could always learn. Also I don't have any so I'd need to buy them. Not a huge issue, just if there are alternatives I'd love to hear them. Is it worth dropping some of the command in Sword Masters, (Standard Bearer and Musician) and getting the upgrades on the Eagles?

Eagles are great, trust me. However, they should be kept cheap and they'll rarely find that the upgrades come in useful, so they're not really worth it.

atreides237 wrote:If I can't take the dragonhelm is it worth moving the mage back to level 2? I feel life is strong as a method of keeping the swordmasters alive. The archmage I am torn between Shadow, Metal and High Magic. However the ward save from high magic would be more useful on the swordmasters would it not? Still they have botwd so maybe not.

Swordmasters aren't that survivable anyway, so Life is somewhat wasted on them, especially coming from your Lvl4. Your Lvl4 would be much better off using Shadow, as it's a great Lore overall and is a huge boost to the shooting element of your list. That said, Metal isn't a bad choice either. It has some nice buffs and will help against really heavy armour, something your list may struggle with a bit. Swapping Lores around is free - and fun - so have a few games with different ones, and see which works best for you. Never use High Magic on a Lvl4 though, it's just not worth it, the rulebook lores are far better.

For the Level 1/2, it's really up to you. A Lvl1 High Mage works well, defaulting to Drain Magic and bumping up the Ward Save on your Swordmasters in the process (although Khaine's Ring on your BSB arguably does the same job better), a Lvl1 Beasts is good because Wyssan's, a Lvl1 Metal is good (provided you don't take it on your Lvl4) for anti-armour, and a Lvl1/2 Life is good for extra survivability. Note though that, for High and Life, the mage needs to be in the same unit, which puts him in danger. Like I said though, have a play around, see which works best.

atreides237 wrote:I could drop an eagle, give the sword of might to the bladelord, pick up an ogre blade on the BSB making the two of them very killy indeed. Bumping the mage up to level 2 rounds out the 1500. Still not convinced by the eagle though. Do you grab 2 and just send them like an arrow at the enemies war machine or what? I will think some more on how I want my army to play.
Please keep up the advice and include your reasons please I'm learning a lot.

Remember, no items on the Bladelord. Ogre Blade on the BSB isn't a bad idea, but I think your main priority is keeping him alive. As for Eagles, yes, in a way. Chances are your opponent will shoot them, but that's less shooting at your main forces. Use them to harass the enemy units and force them to react.

atreides237 wrote:Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation - with an Archer unit / On his own?
Mage, Life, Dispel Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar - with Sword Masters
Noble, Heavy Armor, BSB, Shield of the Myrwyrm, Sword of Might - with Sword Masters
Archers, 18x, Musician
Archers, 18x, Musician
Swordmasters, 22x, Musician, Bladelord, Biting Blade, Standard Bearer, BotWD
1x Bolt Thrower
2x Great Eagle

Like I said before, Swordmasters tend to work best in smaller groups. You may be better off having a unit of ~14 with nothing but a musician (joined by characters) and, a unit of 7 with the same. That's how I prefer to use them. A large unit can work (and admittedly is more likely to do so in a smaller game) but you'll need to focus on keeping it alive. Give the BSB Khaine's Ring and make the Mage Lvl1, using High Magic. Again, you can have a play around.

In any case, I'd recommend dropping the Mage to Lvl1, dropping the Biting Blade from the Bladelord - and perhaps the crown on the Lvl1 - and enough Swordmasters to get a second RBT in. You'll benefit from a second of them much more than you will from the other random bits and bobs in the list. And you said you were wary of having only 1 anyway.

Nice Shadow, thanks

I'll play with the Lores as you say and see how they work out.

Rocking with:

Archmage, Level 4, Lore of Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation
Mage, Level 1, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon - with the larger unit of Swordmasters
Noble, BSB, Heavy Armor, Khaines Ring of Fury, Shield of the Myrwyrm - with the larger unit of Swordmasters
Archers, x18, Musician
Archers, x18, Musician
Swordmasters, x14, Musician
Swordmasters, x8, Musician
2x Bolt Throwers
2x Great Eagles

Total: 1500 points.

I am a little worried that the smaller swordmasters unit will be under threat, but I also don't want to have them all in one place and get held up while the enemy wreaks havoc amongst my (gunline? bowline?) ranged back line. The ironcurse icon at 5 points should provide a minor measure of protection against warmachines as well as finishing off those last few points (yes, yes, shinymagicitemsitis). I now feel ready to paint these

Thank you all very much for your help.

atreides237 wrote:
Nice Shadow, thanks

I'll play with the Lores as you say and see how they work out.

Rocking with:

Archmage, Level 4, Lore of Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation
Mage, Level 1, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon - with the larger unit of Swordmasters
Noble, BSB, Heavy Armor, Khaines Ring of Fury, Shield of the Myrwyrm - with the larger unit of Swordmasters
Archers, x18, Musician
Archers, x18, Musician
Swordmasters, x14, Musician
Swordmasters, x8, Musician
2x Bolt Throwers
2x Great Eagles

Total: 1500 points.

I am a little worried that the smaller swordmasters unit will be under threat, but I also don't want to have them all in one place and get held up while the enemy wreaks havoc amongst my (gunline? bowline?) ranged back line. The ironcurse icon at 5 points should provide a minor measure of protection against warmachines as well as finishing off those last few points (yes, yes, shinymagicitemsitis). I now feel ready to paint these

Thank you all very much for your help.

Haha, don't worry, adding in Ironcurse for those last 5pts isn't shinymagicitemsitis. The main symptom is taking a magic item in literally every available slot

The list looks good, so no worries there! Don't fret about the smaller unit of Swordmasters either. The idea is they're a strong chaff unit. Your opponent can't quite ignore them, because they're dishing out 16 WS6 S5 attacks, but focusing firepower on them means your main threat is in better condition.