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I've recently become infatuated with big stompy robots, and I've known about Battletech for quite some time and have dabbled in it at a friend's house. I've also been checking out Heavy Gear and it appeals to me as well. Basically, what are some good strengths and weaknesses for either system? Is there one that people seem to prefer over the other? Does Battletech have campaign rules like Heavy Gear: Arena has? Personal opinions, objective discussion, all is welcome and appreciated as I want to get into one or the other in a big way.

 Coldhatred wrote:
I've recently become infatuated with big stompy robots, and I've known about Battletech for quite some time and have dabbled in it at a friend's house. I've also been checking out Heavy Gear and it appeals to me as well. Basically, what are some good strengths and weaknesses for either system? Is there one that people seem to prefer over the other? Does Battletech have campaign rules like Heavy Gear: Arena has? Personal opinions, objective discussion, all is welcome and appreciated as I want to get into one or the other in a big way.

Battletech Pros:
- Concrete vehicle creation system for custom units
- Lots and lots (and lots) of history, great for folks who love immersing themselves in a setting and don't mind getting a bit buried
- Lots of dials and knobs to play with depending on how simple (Alpha Strike) or how complex (all the Tactical Operations optional rules in play!) you want to get.
- Caters to minis gamers and hex'n'chit wargamers alike
- Delightfully 80's trappings give it an awesome retro-vibe
- Mechs are center stage and the kings of the battlefield
- The rules give 'mechs a real sense of weight, like walking battleships, they actually feel like heavy chunks of metal on the field

Battletech Cons:
- The fluff can be overwhelming for a newbie
- The rules can be intimidating the first time around. Alpha Strike helps this out, but getting in to CBT can seem intimidating
- The vehicle contruction system is wildly abusable in the wrong hands, most groups should avoid it
- Not to say that the actual point system itself is much better, not all designs are equal and it is easy to stumble in to trap units that cost more than they should
- It can get rather pricey if you are a completist, there are tons of books for it
- Delightfully 80's trappings may feel really dated
- The setting can often send your suspension of disbelief flying in ways not even 40k would attempt (even putting aside the plausibility of 'mechs themselves)
- A lot of the minis are ugly and kind of dated

Heavy Gear Pros:
- Wonderful, fully realized setting and one of the few universes where having mecha isn't a big stretch
- Enough background material to give things some meat, but not so much that it is overwhelming (especially if you grab the RPG sourcebook Life on Terra Nova; one of the best general background books ever put to paper)
- The minis look fantastic and are loaded with options
- The game will be undergoing an open beta for its new edition soon
- If you are interested in older version of the game then it actually has a lot of the scale flexibility of Battletech (RPG for personal-scale stuff, hex'n'chit wargame for various levels of play, even has a vehicle construction system in the older editions that is much more flexible than the Btech one)

Heavy Gear Cons:
- The minis are quite expensive if you are looking to get a standard-sized force (especially their resin kits)
- The rules are kind of a mess right now and balance is all over the place
- There is a lot of bad will in the community right now since Dream Pod 9 has released several army revisions that change enough from the last version to actively invalidate some folk's armies
- Quality of products has been hit or miss for the last while (well, models have largely been great, though pricey) and they are often riddled with mistakes that need correcting
- Until the beta comes out, getting in to the game is a mess that requires multiple books just to create a single army (some need 4-5 to do it).
- The army creation system can be really intimidating and it is really easy to flub a list and choose a bunch of useless units that don't work well together

In general terms they are both games I love but both are fairly byzantine and can be tough to get in to. As of now, I think Alpha Strike for Battletech probably puts it out in the lead for good intro products. If they could keep their starter set in production, they'd be set. But that thing usually gets a limited print run that sells out in a few hours and then doesn't see a reprint for a few years (but when it pops up, it is a great deal for the amount of stuff you get). If you can find a starter set and the Alpha Strike rules, I'd recommend them to placate your stompy mech urges.

And that should hold you until the Heavy Gear beta when we can take a gander at the next iteration and say whether it fixes what's broke and takes Heavy Gear to the next level (which I really hope it does). Though unless it comes with a move to a cheaper material, it wont solve the cost issue, so that may still be moot.

I would also look to see who plays what.
I always wanted to play Heavy Gear, but no one in my local is interested, but we have a small BattleTech Comunity and most of my freinds are intrested in BT.

I started playing BT when i was about 14 and only lasted about a year picked up the 25th anni box set and about twenty mechs three years ago order maybe a tank or two here and there and some nic knacks and the game has still not gotten stale havnt even looked into much else besides fantasy gaming and maybe starting up old school dnd but thats another story. Either way once you get the base rules down it runs like clock work

Ronin gave you a great rundown and I agree both games have their strengths and crippling weaknesses. One thing I'd point out is that "battletech" isn't a single monolithic entity anymore now that Alpha Strike is out and allows much bigger model counts at the "cost" of markedly simpler rules; Classic BT and AS share some similarities but they look and play like vastly different games. If you like playing with more 10 or more models in your "army", I'd say skip CBT and the current Heavy Gear and compare what you think of Alpha Strike and the upcoming HG next edition alpha rules due for release late this week. If you prefer more detailed gameplay with a small model count, compare CBT and current HG.

Heavy Gear is also a very combined arms game. It does not really focus on the big stompy robots as much as Battletech. With HG, I am not sure you can even have a game of mecha only, I'm not sure how well it would work. Battletech has no problems with this situation.

Battletech on the surface LOOKS really complicated, but it really isn't. You can keep it pretty simple. As long as you can do very simple addition and subtraction Battletech isn't complicated.

Battletech is simpler than HGB. On the other hand, it is much more time consuming especially with earlier eras. In 3025, for example, it takes forever to take down a mech unless you are lucky enough to get a head shot. There is a lot of book keeping as well. Earlier mechs can't compete with newer versions. The starter set only give you the 3025 mechs that you have to make a proxy for newer ones. Almost all miniatures are down right ugly.

HGB is much faster and an average game typically lasts for 4 turns. In an evening, you can play two at least. Models can be expensive and this is why you have to wait for a sale. Some are still over cost or under cost to cause imbalance. Hopefully, this can be fixed soon. Yes, current rules is a mess but Battletech went through the same thing in the past as well.

 Mattlov wrote:
Heavy Gear is also a very combined arms game. It does not really focus on the big stompy robots as much as Battletech. With HG, I am not sure you can even have a game of mecha only, I'm not sure how well it would work. Battletech has no problems with this situation.

I'm not sure where you get that. My entire southern army of 10 squads until recently was purely a gear regiment. Frequently, battle reports contain only gears on one or both sides as the non-gear models in HG's lineup are quite expensive (one strider costs you as much $$ as 4 gears).

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showforum=60

There is however a significant portion of the remaining fanbase that champion Heavy Gear as a "combined arms" wargame every chance they get. They're not wrong and it definitely is something the game can do but the focus has always been (and IMO always should be) on the gears that make it unique.

BattleTech also make you make a few decisions you have to make, some times from time to time.
>Game Size: One on One, Lance on Lance, Company on Company
>Balance: In the 3025 setting Tonnage is a reasonable way to balance out things, but once you get to the 3050 era you need some sort of balancing point system. My issue is that there is no “1850 or 2,000” set up, I have even asked someone from Catalyst game and they had no points for an average game.
>The Clans: They can be a Game Breaker if you don’t watch it.
The one good thing is that the game can be as complicated as you want it to be.

The biggest strength for heavy gear is the models for me. They are just a vastly superior product IMO, albeit more costly as well.
Yes they do have some groaners(some of the older vehicles) all the recently released vehicles have been very well done.

I don't mind battle tech at all but if I ever got into it heavily I'd probly proxy models. Maybe reaper CAV minis.

I'm not a huge fan of the Battletech rules, but I love the background, which is one of the most extensive wargaming universes ever. and except for the core rulebook, just about anything you buy for Battletech is usable for playing Alpha Strike, which is a game that I really like. Battletech has incredibly deep campaign rules as well as options for more streamlined campaign play.

Heavy Gear mechs are cool, but the company has a really terrible record of not listening to it's customers, not updating the various factions with any kind of equity, and imposing odd army requirements with new versions that invalidate various unit arrangements. Also, it's danged expensive.

In Battletech on the other hand the rulebook is updated every once in a while, but the game hardly has changed in 30 years. That's bad in some folks opinion, and the rules are NOT cutting edge. However, it means that nearly every BT product ever produced is still useable, so when you find an old scenario pack or sourcebook at Half Price Books, there's not need to check if it's "current".

Also, one more dig against HG is that the community is even smaller than BT's which isn't that big to either.

You can see which way I'm leaning, but my best advice though is to see what is being played around you and participate in demo games. They are very different games and it would stink to invest in a game only to find you didn't like it, or to start playing a game that no one in your area is playing

I'd agree that the local community is a key factor that the OP should consider. The complaint of no other players is the most numerous reason given in the poll I set up about why people don't play HG and it's one that I've personally experienced for the past 3 years since getting back into HG. I finally have someone relatively local (50miles) to play against who is already interested as everyone I tried to recruit has fizzled out across multiple stores. I've recruited others for different games during that time so I don't think my opinionated personality is the key issue.

Battletech has been going strong through three different manufacturers and for greater than 30 years.

There are TV shows, a movie (based on the TV show), video games, novels, and tons of other media about Battletech.

You can download the starter rules for free. Miniatures are completely optional.

Varying levels of crunch and scope to suit any gamer.

Heavy Gear is okay. Soon it will be on its third? edition. Significant rules changes between editions. miniatures (expensive ones) are required.

jamesk1973 wrote:
Battletech has been going strong through three different manufacturers and for greater than 30 years.

There are TV shows, a movie (based on the TV show), video games, novels, and tons of other media about Battletech.

You can download the starter rules for free. Miniatures are completely optional.

Varying levels of crunch and scope to suit any gamer.

Heavy Gear is okay. Soon it will be on its third? edition. Significant rules changes between editions. miniatures (expensive ones) are required.

Miniature are no more required in HG than in Battletech and the intro sets used to included paper counters. The only time a paper cutout is a disadvantage is when determining TLOS cover but they're definitely not required. Also, HG had a tv show, video games, novels, and other media as well. It's also coming out with it's 7th edition (or 5th by DP9's incorrect and self serving count) which ISN'T a good thing because you end up buying a minimally changed book that creates almost as many problems as it "fixes" historically. The original blitz release and this upcoming one might both break that mould. The miniatures are more expensive but they're also generally better sculpted in most cases and more complicated for variety of posing options; the gears are competitively priced but the resin larger models are too expensive IMO. Beauty is truely in the eye of the beholder but I find almost all of the non-robotech BT designs ugly. The madcat is the only one I can think of off hand that isn't. HG fandom, much like BT, is a two edged sword.

I would recommend Battletech Alpha Strike over normal Battletech any day. Grab the Alpha Strike book for $30 and then when the new Battletech box set comes in April out it has 26 I think plastic mechs in it for like $60.

Honestly that's all you need to play a great many games, and then you can get some metal mechs if you're so inclined.

The Battletech starter box set traditionally has enough fiction and fluff to give you lots of great ideas, plus the giant pile of 'mechs. Then Alpha Strike has a great streamlined ruleset so you can play 12v12 in under two hours (versus say 4x4 in 4 hours in normal Battletech rules)... and it has a relatively balanced points system. In fact every unit - mech, tank, vtol, etc --ever made for Battletech has Alpha Strike stats available for free at www.masterunitlist.info



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Plus with Alpha Strike you use terrain and such (Battletech is on hex-grid paper) so you can get packs of trees and buildings for relatively cheap.

As an aside, one of my favorite books is Battletech Historicals War of 3039. It's basically a giant book outlining a war in the game's history, every major battle and good descriptions of units involves and terrain and such - grabbing one of the Battletech Historicals books gives you immediate access to tons of great scenarios. They excel at giving you a lot of information to play 'historical' battles in the Battletech universe.

 warboss wrote:

 Mattlov wrote:
Heavy Gear is also a very combined arms game. It does not really focus on the big stompy robots as much as Battletech. With HG, I am not sure you can even have a game of mecha only, I'm not sure how well it would work. Battletech has no problems with this situation.

I'm not sure where you get that. My entire southern army of 10 squads until recently was purely a gear regiment. Frequently, battle reports contain only gears on one or both sides as the non-gear models in HG's lineup are quite expensive (one strider costs you as much $$ as 4 gears).

There is however a significant portion of the remaining fanbase that champion Heavy Gear as a "combined arms" wargame every chance they get. They're not wrong and it definitely is something the game can do but the focus has always been (and IMO always should be) on the gears that make it unique.

I've never seen a Gear-only game, and anyone I've ever talked to has said it pretty much has to be played combined arms. I haven't played in ages though, as the game just doesn't interest me as much as Battletech does.

 Mattlov wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mattlov wrote:
Heavy Gear is also a very combined arms game. It does not really focus on the big stompy robots as much as Battletech. With HG, I am not sure you can even have a game of mecha only, I'm not sure how well it would work. Battletech has no problems with this situation.

I'm not sure where you get that. My entire southern army of 10 squads until recently was purely a gear regiment. Frequently, battle reports contain only gears on one or both sides as the non-gear models in HG's lineup are quite expensive (one strider costs you as much $$ as 4 gears).

There is however a significant portion of the remaining fanbase that champion Heavy Gear as a "combined arms" wargame every chance they get. They're not wrong and it definitely is something the game can do but the focus has always been (and IMO always should be) on the gears that make it unique.

I've never seen a Gear-only game, and anyone I've ever talked to has said it pretty much has to be played combined arms. I haven't played in ages though, as the game just doesn't interest me as much as Battletech does.

Confirmation Bias? Gear only lists are pretty valid and we used them all the time. Certain factions don't use gears, so obviously it will vary, but the main factions, North/South can go all gear, or all gear/strider (bigger non often non-humanoid walkers) quite easily and still be effective and balanced. My buddy played pretty much all gears, he didn't' own tanks or infantry. The closest he got to non-gears was two field guns (Kind of like onboard Long Toms) that he sometimes used.

If you want to talk about the overall cost for the game, BT by far is the cheapest. A lance of 4 mechs at 3050 era will last you forever and you only need one used rulebook to play. That is it.

HGB's figures are expensive especially the resin ones but there is really no need for you to build an army more than 1000TV in strength. So, the size is quite limited. Like what I mentioned before, if you can wait and shop for some good online deals, the price will be very affordable. There is also no need for you to purchase all army books. The Field Manual, now free, is all you need to start playing.