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In terms of popularity and general playing, it looks like MOBA games are much more in the limelight than RTS, which was one of the PC gaming flagship types of game a few years ago.

The RTS gave birth to the MOBA; has the MOBA largely replaced it's ancestor?

Sadly yes, I'd love a proper RTS again...

I dont think it killed the rts really. I think moba games are popular at the moment but there will always be a market for games that focus on building bases and armies over just one or two heroes

Silly question, whats an MOBA?

Where are you getting your numbers to back this statement?

I'd say yes, but RTS as a genre, was kind of dying long before MOBA's hit their current level of popularity. The late 90's and early 2000's were the golden age of RTS, but RTS as a genre kind of hit its limit. It was never that big. It looked big because the PC market was smaller, but as the PC market grew it wasn't because of RTS but FPS and RPG (note that MOBA's invluded RPG elements). RTS interest hasn't waned so much as it was never as strong as it seemed a decade ago.

Daston wrote:
Silly question, whats an MOBA?

Smite, League of Legends, Defense of the Ancients (Dota).

RTS was always "dying". Too much trying to copy crappy old games like Starcraft, not enough trying to innovate. It's like the problems MMOs faced before they found the F2P model, in a sense.

RTS games tried to innovate, and there are still the occasional ones coming out.

Company of Heroes added squad-based RTS cover mechanics to the mix and that is echoed in Dawn of War II.

Total War added massive regiments to the game, and that series continues to this day with occasional innovations in everything but AI.

Sins of a Solar Empire was a unique intermediary between Turn-Based 4X games and normal RTSs.

Even the miscarriage that was C&C4 tried to be unique. Had it been a spinoff, it would have been okay. But EA DRM and trying to appeal to C&C fans crushed it.

We also have Starcraft 2. Both Starcraft 2s are well-reviewed and well-liked. It just so happens that it's the strongest competitor in the room right now and with how botched the C&C series was since EA took it on, nobody wants to try to beat Starcraft at its own game. Developers are finding ways beyond the traditionally boring BuildBase->CollectResources->Tank/Zerg Rush games.

You have to remember that even back in the golden days of RTSs, there were dozens of pretenders and only C&C, Starcraft/Warcraft, and Age of Empires stood out. Total Annihilation was close.

TotalAnnihilation wasn't "close" it exceeded Starcraft in popularity for a while (basically until the death of its parent company).

Well, hopefully Novus Aeterno doesn't turn out to be a bust, I'd love to see more MMORTS type games explored.

Anyway, I really am not a fan of MOBA's, so I hope that game developers don't see them as 'the future of the RTS genre', but now that you've mentioned, I noticed that most RTS type games coming out from the bigger publishers these days are either MOBA or more 'simulation' like ala Men of War, etc.

No one remembers Dark Reign despite the many features it helped introduce into mainstream RTS. :(

But yeah I feel that MOBAs really have replaced RTS games it seems. However it should be noted that we are seeing a significant comeback of old school TBS and Isometric RPGs so give it a few years and I wouldn't be surprised to see RTS games making a comeback.

Honestly, aside from the similar isometric camera both genres employ, I see few similarities.

As someone who grew up in aforementioned "Golden Age" of RTS and is now an avid fan of LoL, I can tell you that I play both types of games for very different reasons.

If RTSs are on the decline it's likely more to do with that genres failings than another replacing it.

Planetary Annihilation should be released soon, and from what I have played it's a pretty solid RTS game.

Starcraft: Legacy of the Void I believe will likely be out this year as well. I have never been a fan of the franchise - i played Total Annihilation - but do consider it to be a successful game and a good example of the genre.

I would agree with the premise that the rise of the MOBA has occurred while the RTS genre has waned, but I am not sure those events are related. I mean, "beat em up" games have been on the decline for many years, did some genre supplant it?

 Melissia wrote:
TotalAnnihilation wasn't "close" it exceeded Starcraft in popularity for a while (basically until the death of its parent company).

I remember playing that game, far too many hours were wasted on it, and it was all amazing and well spent I think.

I don't play any MOBA's simply because I find it would be too hard to get into the scene of it all right now but I would honestly take a RTS over one of them any day of the week simply because I love the idea and the strategy that comes into to play with base building or turn based strategy games.

I don't think you can blame MOBA's for the decrease in triple A RTS titles, there is a correlation between the two but as we all know that does not imply causation.

I don't think they are to 'blame' for the decline in the RTS, but they fill the void that the RTS decline has created.

I don't think that's really true either.

Though obviously MOBA's evolved from RTS's, they are very different genres. People who primarily played RTS's haven't all converted to playing MOBA's, nor are all people who play MOBA's originally RTS gamers. They are distinct types of games with distinct fanbases that overlap no more than the fanbases of any other combination of genres.

If someone wants to play an RTS they are more likely to simply play an older RTS than try a new MOBA.

No. The two genres share almost nothing in common.

 shamikebab wrote:
No. The two genres share almost nothing in common.

Well they are both top down, real time and feature destruction of the enemy base as the main objective... But I agree they are very different genres.

 Melissia wrote:
RTS was always "dying". Too much trying to copy crappy old games like Starcraft, not enough trying to innovate. It's like the problems MMOs faced before they found the F2P model, in a sense.

I just want to state this for the record and make it clear: StarCraft was in no way, shape, or form a "crappy game".

It's balance between strategy and heavy micro requirements is almost unparalled. It spawned the first and arguably most successfully pro-gaming league in the world. No other computer RTS has reached the strategic depth attained by that game.

All hail starcraft (broodwar).


However, the strategic depth of dota is actually comparable, but instead of relying on yourself to control an army, you have to co-ordinate between 5 others. The same elements are still present: balancing current and future resources for current and future combat ability, exploiting timing windows where you have a theoretical "advantage" over the opponent based on tech/items/upgrades, obtaining map control over strategic locations, etc.

Mobas are not "RTS" lite. They are just teams doing the same gak, instead of a single person. Basically, they just re-balance the micro load, at the expense of making it harder to co-ordinate strategy (although this is largely overcome by pro teams that train together as a full time job).

The problem istn that RTS are being replaced, its just that a lot of them basically suck or come down to being shameless copies of each other.

GalCiv2 was pretty well liked, and suddenly you have around 5 very simliar Games hitting steam in short order.

Minecraft gets popular and suddenly Indie is a thing and you have A LOT of blocky/Survival-based Games hopping around your garden.

Its not that genres are killing each other, its the fact that big time Publishers are scared to take risks, to innovate and make something new. This is the reason WoW powerbombed its entire competition for YEARS. Other MMORPG's basically just tried to copy WoW, and why play a copy when you can play the superior Original?

If RTS want to get back into the market, they need to offer something you cant get anywhere else, something new, something that isnt allready covered by a largely popular IP.

The Indie-Market is a good example of this. If you want to take off, you gotta be innovative. This is one of the reasons moronic Companys like EA, who hold the industry down, need to die so badly.

I still can't wrap my head around the idea of WoW being superior to anything except maybe as a money-milking machine.

Still, seen some interesting ideas in the indie market, this is true-- Rymdkapsel comes to mind.

WoW is not the best or the first MMORPG, it was simply the most popular at the right time.

Hell, most of what WoW did is just copy other MMOs anyway. Nothing really original in it. It built off of the 'Craft series' playerbase more than its own quality, and in that, I suppose, it was the best.

Wow milked most of it's content initially from Everquest. Thats why they call it Evercrack.

 Corpsesarefun wrote:
WoW is not the best or the first MMORPG, it was simply the most popular at the right time.

Didnt want to imply that, what I was getting at is that a lot of Games tried to _copy_ WoW and make profit off its success. And it didnt work because Wow was allready established and had everything it needed. It was certainly jumpstarted by the large Fanbase of Warcraft, and im pretty sure it wouldnt be where it is without the Name to back it up. But again, it absolutely murdered its competition for a very long time. Its the biggest Horse in its stable, just like Call of Duty and Battlefield in theirs. And simply copying will not suffice to actually compete with them.

I still can't wrap my head around the idea of WoW being superior to anything except maybe as a money-milking machine.

Well, some people like it, some people dont. Theres a lot of content, a lot of story and it has refined a lot of its mechanics and Gameplay over the years. I mainly played it as a Roleplaying Platform with some PvP as a side activity, and had a lot of Fun. Different people, different tastes I guess.

It did less refining of mechanics and more blatantly ripping off other MMOs.

WoW took elements from many games and packaged them into an easily consumable product that was then well marketed at just the right time.

It is the McDonalds of videogames.

Oh, it continued ripping off other MMOs even after it was released.

 Corpsesarefun wrote:
WoW took elements from many games and packaged them into an easily consumable product that was then well marketed at just the right time.

It is the McDonalds of videogames.

And then other Companies tried to copy said Mc Donalds, and still do to this very day.

The comparison is pretty harsh, but I might be biased as someone who played it quite a while. I never found it quite as offensive as other people did.

Oh, it continued ripping off other MMOs even after it was released.

It regularly takes features from other Games, aye. But that is absolutely not unusual on the market. If something sells well it gets copied over and over.


To get back on topic, I think RTS isnt dead or replaced, it just needs a Game or two to do well and prove that you dont have to jump on the MOBA Bandwagon (Its not like thats a good idea anyway, im pretty sure LoL and Dota 2 arent Games you want to compete against, currently.). Also, its not like they are completely gone. Scrolling trough steam right now and there are at least a handful of interesting releases on schedule.