Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello. This is my first crack at a 2000 point Black Legion army. I eyeballed it out of the codex and what I thought would be cool options to take. and came in 319 points over. I started 40k with Necrons, whose choices were much simpler than CSM, and I have no clue what I'm about when it comes to Marines,so no ridicule please

I have 2 Chaos Attack Force boxes and a couple hand-me-down Dark Vengeance models to work with. I'm hoping to discover the least useful expenditure of points I've made, be it units or wargear, and trim this down to a 2000 point force.

[Models I have access to that arent in this list are: 2 Terminator Lords or Sorcerers, 1 Daemon Prince, 30 Cultists (10 w/ Autogun),]

2319
HQ:
Abbadon - 265

Troops:
10 Chosen - 335
(VoLW, 4 Meltas, 1 ML, MoK, IoW, Champion:Combi-Flamer/PF & MB)
1 Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher - 47
10 Chosen - 350
(VoLW, 4 PG, 1 LC, MoN, Champion:Combi-Flamer/PF & MB)
1 Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher - 47

Elite:
10 Terminators - 480
(VoLW, BoD, 1 PF, 2 CF, 4 C-Melta, 2 Reaper AC, MoN, Champion: PF/LC)
1 Helbrute - 105

Fast Attack:
10 Raptors - 290
(2 Flamers, MoK, IoW, Champion: PP/PF & MB)

Heavy Support:
2 Forgefiends - 400


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One note: For campaign fluff reasons, I have to have Abaddon and a unit of Bringers of Despair terminators


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and one more question: If you add 1 and only 1 unit to this list, what would you bring?

I've got a few minor suggestions:
- You are slightly lacking in the Troops department. Also, Chosen are really overpriced, particularly when you start adding up special weapons and marks. You could downgrade them to CSM with 2 matching special weapons per squad and an Icon of Vengeance for Fearless.
- Reaper Autocannons look great, but they aren't really worth it. Dropping them would be a 50 pts. reduction.
- I regret to say that the best thing you could add would be a Heldrake. Even I use one, even though I'm rather far from being super-competitive.

The key to being good at CSM is knowing what loadouts to take.

I agree with everything SarisKhan said save for maybe the icon of vengeance. You have LD10 as it is and 35 points per squad is a fair amount for a 170 point squad.

10 terminators is just ridiculous. Never take that many, especially in one group, unless you're very experienced and know exactly what you're doing. Stick abby in a land raider with a biomancy sorcerer and 3 mutilators is what id suggest.

Also id just take your FFs barebones. Hades autocannons is they way to take them imo

Thanks very much. I do appreciate this advice very, very much, as I haven't started gluing stuff together and dont want to make any irreversible mistakes.

Unfortunately I can only really afford to add one new unit, so the mutilators/ land raider combo would have to come come later.

What I was trying to do with by using Chosen as troop choices was to have sort of a "no weak units" army by unlocking access to 4 Meltas or Plasma Guns and 4 attacks on the charge (vs. standard marines)...I take it this is not a good idea?

jasper76 wrote:
Thanks very much. I do appreciate this advice very, very much, as I haven't started gluing stuff together and dont want to make any irreversible mistakes.

Unfortunately I can only really afford to add one new unit, so the mutilators/ land raider combo would have to come come later.

What I was trying to do with by using Chosen as troop choices was to have sort of a "no weak units" army by unlocking access to 4 Meltas or Plasma Guns and 4 attacks on the charge (vs. standard marines)...I take it this is not a good idea?

Well, CSM could be briefly summarised as Codex: Overpriced. Most units pay not only for the upgrades themselves, but also for the mere ability to take them. Chosen with multiple special weapons and Marks + Icons are very strong, but not efficient enough to justify the total pts. cost. I think you'd be better of bringing several squads of CSM with a couple of upgrades rather than a couple of Chosen squads with several upgrades, if you know what I mean.

Troops are mainly for scoring, unless you bring Noise Marines with lots of sonic dakka. In terms of firepower, rely on the Forgefiends with twin Hades Autocannons each.

Gotcha...now that I'm thinking about it, a Chosen CSM dies just as easily as a Standard CSM, so I am starting to see it may not be worth it for 2 extra special weapons and attacks I may never get to make.

Would you keep the troop # at 10, or go less than that?

jasper76 wrote:
Gotcha...now that I'm thinking about it, a Chosen CSM dies just as easily as a Standard CSM, so I am starting to see it may not be worth it for 2 extra special weapons and attacks I may never get to make.

Would you keep the troop # at 10, or go less than that?

10 per squad is a very good number. You can't easily kill all of them at once, you can give them 2 special weapons (or special+heavy), and that's the max amount that fits into a Rhino.

Cool. If you don't mind another question (you've been awesome helpful). Changerofways says 10 Terminators are too much.

For the campaign we're gonna play, I have to have at least one unit of Bringers of Despair Terminators. Since their WS and BS is better than a normal Terminator, do you agree nonetheless that 10 are too many.

I could split them up, but only 1 unit is able to take the Bringers of Despair upgrade.

jasper76 wrote:
Cool. If you don't mind another question (you've been awesome helpful). Changerofways says 10 Terminators are too much.

For the campaign we're gonna play, I have to have at least one unit of Bringers of Despair Terminators. Since their WS and BS is better than a normal Terminator, do you agree nonetheless that 10 are too many.

I could split them up, but only 1 unit is able to take the Bringers of Despair upgrade.

I think you should split them up, probably into 2x5. The main reason for that is that a unit of 10 Terminators is very unwieldy, particularly when you try to DS them. I myself run a single unit of 6 with my Terminator Lord, for instance.

You could equip the Bringers of Despair with CC in mind and use them as Abaddon's retinue. The other squad could do something else in the meantime, with Combi-weapons perhaps, or just plain provide support for Abaddon's unit whilst acting as a separate squad.

Also, you're welcome. Children of Torment are a faction of the Black Legion, mind you

Awesome. I havent even read the fluff in the Codex yet, too busy catching up on the Rules section of the 2 Codices (Necrons are soooo easy by comparison!)

For now then, I'll probably kit my Termies out as follows:

5 Bringers of Despair w/ Abbadon
(2 CF, 2 PF, 1 HF, MoN)

5 Terminators
(probably 5 Combi-Plasma since they'r Relentless, and Champ w/ a PF)

Thanks so much, man!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh...maybe 1 shot of plasma isnt so great. Either the meltas or plain jane.

Combi-Meltas if you want to destroy some vehicles, or Insta-kill something T4. Combi-Plasmas if you want to remove an entire enemy Terminator unit or an MC in one shooting phase (remember that they're Rapid Fire, so 2 shots within 12"!). Or you can stay cheap with good ol' Combi-Bolters.

 SarisKhan wrote:
- I regret to say that the best thing you could add would be a Heldrake. Even I use one, even though I'm rather far from being super-competitive.

Argh this is a major bugbear for me, one heldrake is far from trying to be super competitive, two isn't even that bad really, don't guilt over it at all. It seems taking even one of the things gets you labelled WAAC mostly by people who don't even play, and yet you don't see people saying that of tau that take a riptide or eldar with a couple of wave serpents, I swear it's the chaos marine victim mentality! What makes it worse is the heldrake is just one good unit helping to shore up a mediocre dex, whereas Tau and Eldar both have books filled to the brim with strong units to pick from. /Mini rant over.

Back on topic the advice here has all been good, it's a shame you don't have the helbrute from DV as that would let you use the helcult formation with the cultists since you're lacking in troops and making them fearless essentially for free is rather good. But I'd definitely try and stick at least a squad or two in to your current list even if you keep them off the board to move on to backfield objectives later. Actual marines are basically all overpriced currently but if that's what you've got for now then you'll have to work with it!

I wouldn't take the second unit of terminators personally, the one unit you need to take for fluff reasons should be enough as they aren't particularly efficient (and bets are on the bringers of despair wanting to be special). That would free up points for those troop choices as two is really not enough at 2k points by a long shot!

Depending on how stringently you want to stick with Black Legion an allied Crimson Slaughter sorcerer in terminator armour sitting with a unit of cultists and the divination relic would make those forgefiends a lot more scary, but a terminator sorcerer in general is one of the stronger option for chaos if that is a step too far.

I do have the Helbrute from Dark Vengeance. He's in the original list.

I don't see any rules like the one your talking about in either CSM or BL Codex. Is it in Escalation?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, looks like I can find out for $5.00. GW is a joke. Rant Over.

Oh heck so it is, wake up me, I know not everyone is a fan of dataslates but yeah it is indeed not free, I also wish they were back in white dwarf, or with the codex where they belong but I don't see that coming back any time soon. Side note might be worth checking the chaos marine FAQ, the brute is now 100 points not 105. Like I say the cultists are probably worth squeezing in even without the extra rules, it's currently too easy to kill your scoring, especially since you'll be fighting with them.

I would ditch the PP on the raptor champion. I also prefer melta to flamers on raptors, since anything you could kill with the flamers before an assault you probably weren't going to have a problem with anyway. I agree with the MoK and IoW.

I also agree with running a single Heldrake. Anybody that gives you flak for using a single one in a 2000 point army is a tool.

 slowthar wrote:
I would ditch the PP on the raptor champion. I also prefer melta to flamers on raptors, since anything you could kill with the flamers before an assault you probably weren't going to have a problem with anyway. I agree with the MoK and IoW.

Do you mean the MoK and IoW are good choices for the Raptors?

 slowthar wrote:
I also agree with running a single Heldrake. Anybody that gives you flak for using a single one in a 2000 point army is a tool.

This won't be an issue for me. Last game I played 2 Imperial Knights. The game before that I played a Lord of Skulls, and Flying Circus with 3 Bloodletters and 4 Daemon Princes. And I'm, what, a week or so away from facing Imperial Guard Armor armies most games for probably the next year of my life. If any of my buds cry about a Heldrake (or three, were that possible), I won't be having a minute of it.