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Ok, i was originally intending to get into and play fantasy but the number of fantasy players in my area are near non existent, i may still get some down the road but atm fantasy higher starting cost has me looking now at 40k.

my local games place has a lot of 40k players and many regular events for it.

i do enjoy the 40k franchise having played all the dawn of war 1 and 2 pc games, and enjoyed them immensely.

but what i am unsure of is what to begin playing?

i have been told that 40k is very unbalanced, but this was told to me some time ago and could quite possibly have changed.

the armies i am tempted to give a go are in order of preference,

1. imperial guard, i loved in the games the heavy artillery shelling the field while i sent in a front line of infantry and heavy weapons teams, maybe a tank or 2 for armor support.

2. necrons, i loved these guys for their pure bad assery, i would march my forces in with the lord at its helm ready to res my forces, while spiders where rebuilding units from the fallen i could not,
i also used flayed ones for surprise attacks, possibly with a fortress as support.

3. adeptus sororitus/sisters of battle, i played these gals much like my imperial guard, exorcist artillery supporting a mostly infantry front line.

i gave an outline of how i would like to field and play these armies so you can let me know if thats even possible.

please help me with how these guys work and how the armies perform, i like the game, and i know winning is not everything but i would like to be able to win once in a while.

also how do these forced perform in the different point ranges from low to high.

thank you in advance.

Like you, I'd probably prefer WHFB, but 40K dominates the area where I live. It's arguably less balanced because every month we get some super new codex with a bunch of special snowflake units that get extra options for no extra cost, or it's an army of vehicles that ignore 50%+ of the 40K model range.

All these issues disappear when you play with reasonable people though, and WHFB probably has issues too. This post isn't intended to put you off.

Imperial guard - especially in the format you want, is expensive. You can go the 'all veteran' route, but that's always looked wack to me.

Sororitas will cost you a bunch (all metal models) and you'll get no support from GW. Seriously do a search for "Sisters of Battle" and see how many disenfranchised SoB players frequent this board. They're extremely vocal about it.

Necrons are easy to paint and probably won't set you back all that much in terms of $$$

40K is still VERY unbalanced. Once you can get past that, it can be ok.

IG should be getting a new codex soon. So I wouldn't go buy the new IG codex since it will be invalidated pretty soon. Sometime around April if rumours are correct. They will not be called IG but Astra Militia or something like that.

For Necrons, Flayed ones are one of the worst units EVER in 40K from what I read. Never used them yet so can't speak from actual experience.

Also, if you are talking how they played on the computer, they do not play the same on the table. Vehicles can be destroyed real easily now and some people are upset at that.

Starting a Sisters army is very expensive because they are all in metal. So if you don't like working with metal, SoB may not be for you.

Other question is, do you need to win? There is a difference from needing to win, and having fun and winning from time to time. Once we know this, your answers can be more easily answered.

The fun you'll get from the game is almost entirely reliant on finding players with the same philosophy. The balance issues means that there are objectively good choices, which a player who is more about winning will choose, and worse choices, which a player who is more interested in telling a story, or the units background, or the cool models might take.

If you can find an opponent, or group of opponents, who share the same outlook as you, then you can have a lot of fun. Things can break down when story orientated players start playing against result orientated players, as things can get very one sided and not fun for either party.

As for army, I've never been a fan of Necrons, so couldn't really recommend them in honesty, but of the remaining two, the Guard are due a new book this very weekend, and the playstyle you describe can be undertaken, AS are the ginger step child of the 40K universe, get little rules support (although they did, technically, get a new codex recently) and the most expensive and difficult to collect (GW only or second hand, many models OOP) so I guess I'd go with Guard.

Sisters are not a good army to get into right now. Your codex will be digital only, there is no sign of plastic models in the near future and you'll play the same exact army list again and again because it's the only one that works.

That said you would have an army you could beat a mugger to death with...

IG look like they'll have an update here in the by next month at the latest, so you might want to wait and see how that looks before jumping in and buying the old codex.

Necrons won't be getting updated right away (next year at the soonest it seems if rumors hold true) so they're a safe investment if you want to get started right now. They're pretty solid with a lot of decent builds too.

Thx for the quick feedback.

i dont NEED to win but it would be nice to have more wins then losses.

i didnt know that IG is getting a name change, seems pointless but oh well, i figured IG would be pricey as they would need many units to be tabled to be competitive.

with the necrons its a shame flayed ones are bad as they just seem cool, evil robots draped in the flesh of their enemies, what does necrons benefit from as a basic core army?

the sisters i didnt think would be all that popular, and why would they still be all metal units? that would explain the stupid prices on the GW site, if they are so poor does that mean GW barely does anything for them too?

i wasnt expecting it to play like the game i was expecting big differences but the games where all the experience i have had with warhammer anything.

i have a interest in some of the other races and was wondering how they are in terms of cost VS competitiveness?

1. orcs
2. chaos marines
3. space wolves
4. dark eldar

So, the theme you seem to have running through your OP is that you want your infantry to go somewhere. 6th edition of 40k has made that rather difficult with its by-model cover rules and its must-take-from-the-front wound allocation. Generally speaking, infantry moving forward will only make it as far upfield as the last group did before the died before themselves dying. More making a big corpse wall in one spot than valiantly storming the ramparts regardless of casualties.

If you want that, then I'd recommend either playing 5th edition, or by finding a magic mix of lots of models on the one hand, and reasonable durability on the other. One way of doing this, for example, is with a power armor horde. I ran a khorne berzerker foot horde for awhile, and it managed to do this reasonably well. The power armor lets them survive without relying on cover saves (so they can actually advance), yet are cheap enough to spam the hell out of so that you still have dudes left over once you make it to the other side of the table.

But that was one way. There are other ways you get cram a lot of power armor onto the table these days. Most of the best ways to do this come from the CSM codex, but you can also do it with DA and to a lesser extent regular CSM as well. Another option is to play GK which have a once-per-game special forward teleportation thing.

In any case, be warned that playing foot lists (unless you're tau) is pretty tricky these days, and won't be exactly new user friendly.

I mean, or consider a mech list. Lots of ways to do an aggressive forward push from DE raider spam to CSM raider spam.

Orks are due a new codex soon after IG so I'd wait and see what that looks like.

Chaos is kinda meh it's got builds that work but it's not a good dex.

SW have one of the older codexes and really need an update, we have no AA our prices are too high on some units and too low on others but we can still kick ass.

DE I am no expert on.

so what your saying Ailaros is that infantry is only worth it if running armored units?

if thats the case that kinda sucks.

might be worth looking at a khorn berserker army with heavy support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@hobojebus so Space wolves are a decent race to play?

they look pretty cool. it would be nice to have a cool army to play.

i feel i should point out i dont particularly want to play a race that most others are playing i would like to show up and play something that others may not have on that day.

That's what he's saying but it's a little oversimplified. I play CSM, and get huge mileage out of cultists, who have a 6+ save that gets negated by a stiff breeze. That said, I also get mileage out of big CSM blobs, or smaller 10-man units. So neither are a bad choice.

So yeah, blanket statements are often wrong. CSM also get a flier that is excellent at extracting tears. Again, search "Heldrake" on this forum for evidence.

Waa, waa, waa. 40K is so unbalanced, waa, waa. Honestly, considering that the cost of product is as high as it is one would think people on here would actually be adults and not a bunch of sniffling snobs acting like six year olds every time they don't get their way. Do you guys all cry at work?

Go to your GW buy the starter set, get a friend and learn to play. Heck, have him or her pitch in like $20 to get the models you don't want and let them have them. Take those models, play with them until you know the rules without having to check the rule book throughout the game. Go and watch other people play, see what you like and don't like and go from there.

 Markerlight Junkie wrote:
Waa, waa, waa. 40K is so unbalanced, waa, waa. Honestly, considering that the cost of product is as high as it is one would think people on here would actually be adults and not a bunch of sniffling snobs acting like six year olds every time they don't get their way. Do you guys all cry at work?

This was unnecessary.

On topic, I'd say the most important thing is finding an army YOU like and playing it with like-minded people. It's all about context for any kind of boardgame/wargame. You just need the right crowd!

Okottekoneko wrote:so what your saying Ailaros is that infantry is only worth it if running armored units?

if thats the case that kinda sucks.

Well, it's not impossible, of course. As a long-time foot guard player, I made a serious go of it in 6th edition. The problem is that you're playing the game on extra hard mode if you're going to make most foot lists work, and, as you said, you're a new player. I didn't want to steer you towards something that was likely to get you beaten to a bloody pulp your first several games.

The reason why I recommended a power armor horde was because of how the game happens to be balanced at the moment. Sv3+ is good in part because there just aren't that many Ap3 weapons out there.

If you run a foot terminator list, you're going to run into the problem of everyone cramming in high-strength good-Ap weapons into their list in order to be able to handle heavy vehicles, monstrous creatures, and now superheavies of various sorts, because those kinds of units are strong in this edition. If your opponent can take down three riptides, they certainly have enough Ap1 and 2 weapons to be able to ruin a terminator list.

On the other side, there is a LOT of Ap4 and Ap5 out there, and a shocking amount that ignores cover saves (like the entire tau army, for example). The good Ap is going to force you into cover (and deeply into cover thanks to 6th ed's cover rules), and then when you get ignores cover heaped on... well... you just sort of die. This might not have been as big of a problem in the past where you could bring more dudes than your opponent could bring guns to shoot them, but that has long since ceased to be true over the codex cycle starting at the end of 5th edition.

But Ap3 offers hope. Power armored models are cheap enough that all of those Ap2 weapons your opponent brings won't quite be enough to handle THAT many of them (and so you take advantage of the more bodies than guns thing), while on the other hand, you sort of don't have to care about Ap4 and Ap5 weapons, because it doesn't stop you from saving, and a 3+ save really isn't that bad. Furthermore, once those Ap4/5 weapons start ignoring cover saves, well, you just don't need to care about that. That you can ignore them straight away also means you don't need to dig into cover and stay there.

All of this means that you can do your marching across the table out of cover, and still have something when you arrive. Probably not, you know, a LOT when you arrive, given how badly slanted 40k is towards gunlines at the moment, but you'll stand a serious chance.

The only other way I could make foot lists work was by special mobility. A foot guard list where I deepstruck in 30 stormtroopers our outflanked with huge infantry platoons thanks to a special character that lets them do that. My khorne berzerker list also included deepstriking terminators and obliterators, and used Huron to infiltrate those big wads of berzerkers forward so that I'd have one fewer turn of exposed running.

And if you look, you can find other little gems like this scattered about all the rough. But they're somewhat easier to find once you have more experience which you, as you say, don't have.

Rule #1

There is absolutely no call for this response. Please click the oh-so-subtle link above and re-read the site rules.

Thank you.

 Markerlight Junkie wrote:
Waa, waa, waa. 40K is so unbalanced, waa, waa. Honestly, considering that the cost of product is as high as it is one would think people on here would actually be adults and not a bunch of sniffling snobs acting like six year olds every time they don't get their way. Do you guys all cry at work?

Go to your GW buy the starter set, get a friend and learn to play. Heck, have him or her pitch in like $20 to get the models you don't want and let them have them. Take those models, play with them until you know the rules without having to check the rule book throughout the game. Go and watch other people play, see what you like and don't like and go from there.

Play what army you think appeals to aesthetically and intellectually or what background you like the most.

Basically pick an army you just like because of their background and their models.

DO NOT

REPEAT

DO NOT pick an army because you think it is powerful or people tell you it's the best. Pick what you want to play and play that.

Decide what you want from the game and your monetary expenditure and choose your army.

To say "pick what you like the look of!" works if you are primarily a hobbyist that will play a few games here and there. If you feel you would be disenfranchised from an underperforming army, you may wish to select one you both enjoy the aesthetic and play style.

Out of the three you listed, Necrons are probably the most affordable to start and most of the units in the book may be viable. Except Flayed Ones. Just... don't. Trust us.

Their starter set is one of the better ones, but the Ghost Ark is one of the worst models to physically build I have yet to experience. Well maybe save a certain Master Grade Gundam kit with 8x the sprues and it was a transformer... but I digress, it's rough. That starter set plus an annihlation barge box will get you two troops, a ghost ark, an annihlation barge, an Overlord, and scarabs. This is actually a pretty competent starting force and is recommended.

If you want Imperial Guard, I would wait for their new codex and bide your time as the community hashes it over. Or buy in and hash with them.

If you want Sisters, just be prepared for pain. The best bet would be to save a lot of money and scour ebay or bartertown for someone dumping a literal lot of sisters and try to maximize any discount. I did this by getting $1250 worth of models for $500. That's a sizable down payment, but I also have over 2000 points worth of a pure sisters army, not including the allies I run with it. And it is not a beginners army as is has serious deficits to it, a large one being no respectable way to deal with flyers. They took away our twin-linked melta guns and our ability to spend faith where need it when we need it, so now it's twin-linked multi-melts, getting an inquisitor for prescience, or going guard for Vendettas.

There are some crazy ally options with SoB if you use the FW Space Marine Chapter Tactics of "Red Hunters". Then you can be battle brother with space marines and include an inquisitor, but that's a whole different ball game. Those concepts work best when you slow grow a SoB army.

I hope this helps at least point you on your way. Good luck.

From my experience, ig can still be played as an infantry wall. Especially when backed up by artillery and long-ranged tankhunters. But they won't be able to do it on their own. You'll need an inquisitor - preferably xeno inquisitor and some allies that can buff the blob's durability. I prefer Tigurius - it's ultramarine's librarian. He's relatively cheap and has decent chances of rolling the powers you'll need. Be it 4++ invulnerable save, fnp + relentless, enfeeble or something like this. Some people prefer Dark Angels with Azrael as allies. He instantly gives 4++ and Fearless for your blob. Also, don't forget to take at least some grenades for your platoon. There are lots of dangerous MC that you can't hurt otherwise if you go in for the platoon route. I prefer 30 grenades for a 50-strong platoon.

Blobs can be played even without allies but it's hard to go offensive within the current ruleset and lots of heavy fire pouring at you if you don't have means to buff durability and movement (xeno inquisitor can get a book which allows scoutmove - 6' at the start is pretty handy). So, i'd say that without allies, blobs are worse than mediocre in offence and nice in defence but with right allies, they're decent in both roles. I've lost count on how many monstrous creatures they've killed in hth with grenades.
Note that you'll have to spend quite some money on infantry models.


Necrons are a decent well-ballanced army. I'd say they're one of the top-tier if you go flyeer/wraith spam. Other builds are fairly decent also but within the current 6 ed ruleset, i'd recommend not wasting time on lichguards and flayed ones. To be assaulty, you need to be fast and super-tough. There are certainly some exceptions like 50-strong ig blob with allies like suggested earlier.
They'll cost you less than ig.


Khorne zerks were awesome in 5 ed. But in 6 ed they're really weak cause of rules shifted towards shooting. They still hit hard but can't get to the enemy. And they will have significant problems vs MC. If CSM had any good assault transports they'd be good. Look at orks, battlewagons loaded up with boyz are still very strong and ork's codex is from 2007. But CSM only have a landraider that costs too much limiting you to just 1-2 striking squads. It's still viable if you can throw some more fast threats like lord/sorc + spawns/bikers, maulerfiends, deepstriking oblits or termies. But that's not a themed Berserk list. And honestly, nurgle plague marines are better in this role. They hit not that hard but are much more durable and versatile.

hmmm i see what people are saying, and i am tempted to look into tau, but i do like the look of the necrons and being a balanced and cheaper race does sound appealing.

i may need to go have a look at a few games, at my local store see whats being played and how it goes.

its a shame its all so pricey.

i would say "i hope GW pull their heads out and wake up and lower the prices to encourage growth" but i know that wont happen. maybe ill get lucky and someone is looking to unload some bits.

Check eBay or the swap shop for models, and youTube for battle reports (or just go to the battle reports section). Also, if you aren't playing in a GW store, you might be able to use some other company's models.

whats the swap shop? of theres a place online dedicated to this sort of thing please let me know.

It's on the forum index page (a page or two back from here), a bit down from the top.

ok ill give it a look.

You can watch some Battle Reports on YouTube, for exmple the ones of StrikingScorpion82. You will get a feeling how the armies work without knowing to much about the rules.

OP, if you want to play a game that just looks really cool and you have deep pockets, then 40k is for you. If you want a game with a shred of balance or the freedom to build an army however you like without being possibly crippled, run far away.

 Okottekoneko wrote:
with the necrons its a shame flayed ones are bad as they just seem cool, evil robots draped in the flesh of their enemies, what does necrons benefit from as a basic core army?

Necrons can take air support as dedicated transports, have one of the best CC unit in the game (which also ignores terrain and moves 12"), one of the most points-efficient Heavy Support in the game, can plink down vehicles regardless of armor facing a couple different ways, and have a couple different ways to teleport units from one place to another.

They do have plenty of plenty of weaknesses, too.

It does suck about Flayed Ones. I think they're ace models, and converting basic Warriors to Flayed Ones is fairly simple, even for me.

nice! if im going to roll 40k atm i am definately going to look at necrons!, im guessing there are quite a few necron players?

ill have to paint them in a style others wont really do just to keep more original!

Hollismason wrote:
Play what army you think appeals to aesthetically and intellectually or what background you like the most.

Basically pick an army you just like because of their background and their models.

DO NOT

REPEAT

DO NOT pick an army because you think it is powerful or people tell you it's the best. Pick what you want to play and play that.

^This. A thousand times this.

When all is said and done you are going to be dealing with the models a lot. If you don't like how thy look, you won't want to use them.

i do really like necrons they where on my top 3, and from what i have been told the entry cost is lower and they are competetive so that ticks boxes for me, i was after advice and info on the races so i can make an informed decision, im by no means picking one because i have been told to.

i would only play it if i liked it.

The problem with necron, though, is that there aren't serious foot options for them. A vast majority of necron players play with fliers filled with tiny squads of infantry that scarcely ever see the table, zooming around and making zap noises with airplanes. Otherwise, those necron players who aren't flier crazed tend to take lots of arks and barges... which likewise means that infantry aren't hitting the table. They slowly float in their mobile bunkers occasionally shooting at whatever comes too close, and then flopping out at the last moment onto objectives.

Furthermore, you were expressing desire for mighty heavy hitters, and necron firepower doesn't work like that either. It works by pouring a torrent of medium range firepower on stuff, forcing countless armor saves, and glancing vehicles to death. It may be high-quality firepower, but it's not awesome firepower, blasting from afar any who dare oppose them into a cloud of blood and shrapnel, thunder and gore.

I mean, if you like the models and fluff, I'm sure you can make necron work for you, but from what you were saying in the OP, it doesn't seem like necron will fit your playstyle all that well.