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Believe it or not, there was a time when there was no invulnerable save better than 4+ and no cover save could be better than 4+.

Nowadays it's easy to get cover saves in the 2+ and 3+ range, and more than a few armies sport 3+ invulnerable saves or even 2+ invulnerable saves. Throw in FNP, reanimation protocols, and even a lascannon has to make it through 4 dice rolls just to inflict a wound on some things.

I get that it isn't fun to have your company commander die before he gets into action, but that's why transports are a thing, or deep striking, or other ways to protect your warlord from a shooty death. All of the invulnerable saves just sorta seem like a lazy solution to the problem of uncinematic deaths.

Cover saves are a bit different, primarily because they don't count in close combat. So in that respect, cover is a much more dynamic and tactical part of the game. On the flipside to the 2+/3+ high cover saves, we now have plenty of ranged weapons that ignore cover altogether. Back in the days of 3rd edition cityfight, only flamers could ignore cover. Over a distance, ordnance weapons forced a -1 to cover saves, strength 9+ ordnance was -2 to cover saves. Elevation gave -1. It seems like a much better system to have weapons modify cover, rather than have Tau airburst, marker lights, and IG colossi that just ignore cover altogether.

Yeah, but now there is enough lead/plasma/laser beams flying around that without that stuff everything dies a horrible death at 24-36".

With the sheer amount of AP2, AP3, and instant death and ignores cover in the game? NOPE.

Cover saves are fine for the exact reasons you just listed. Invulnerable saves, on the other hand, have gotten out of hand. The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing, except perhaps at apocalypse level. If Invuls went back to being no better than 4+, it would be an improvement.

Edit: With multiple wounds, units to soak up wounds for characters, the fact that stuff still has to successfully roll to hit and to wound, and a well protected HQ will still have to fail Invul on 4+/5+ and/or FNP. Plus there's Eternal Warrior/high toughness to avoid Instant Death. Come on, guys. You don't need a 2+ Invulnerable save. Claiming you "need" to be able to ignore 5 out of every 6 attacks that come your way, no matter how strong they are (and those super strong, super AP, Ignore cover attacks cost a pretty penny) reeks of strategic laziness. Figure out how to maneuver better. 2+ rerollable invul makes 40k a twisted parody of itself. "Oh, after killing the rest of my squad and lobbing 36 attacks at me you managed to get a single wound. Now repeat that 2 more times. Shoot at me if you want, I can stand out in the open and rain psychic death all day, baby. You wanna charge? Come at me, Bro. It works just as well in CC. I think I'll challenge your character." I'm here to play one army against another, not a bunch of gun toting crooks going up against ing Superman.

If it makes you feel any better I think the only way to see 3++ in my army is to take a forgelord with cataphractii TDA and a cyber familiar.

I don't know if it's the Invulnerable Saves or the prevalence of AP3 stuff, but I HATE the fact that Power Armor is basically unimpressive anymore. What is this, Mordheim? I want Chaos Space Marines that can advance into a hail of fire, not ones that have to hide from Storm Troopers.

You know I only thought of one model who can get a 2++ and that's the Archon, and the lose it the second they fail it. Who am I forgetting? Tzeentch Daemons with Grimore and luck?

Can't Ghaz get a 2+ invuln for a single turn?

A couple named DE characters have the same upgrade you were thinking of for Archons.

And the Tzeentch demon-thing, yeah.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Can't Ghaz get a 2+ invuln for a single turn?

I think he might, but it's only for a single turn when he calls that WAAAGH.

 Jimsolo wrote:
A couple named DE characters have the same upgrade you were thinking of for Archons.

Which can be defeated by bolters and forcing high number of saves, especially the second it fails the first time the Archon is out of a save unless they bought Ghostplay (which only gives a 4+/6++). Also multi-shot S6 weapons make Archons sad (oh hi Tau, Eldar and Guard!)

 Jimsolo wrote:
And the Tzeentch demon-thing, yeah.

Which requires luck to get it to work and can be stopped by nuking the model with the Grimnoire. It's not like they get to keep it.

So yeah, 2++ exists, but it's not exactly as prevelant as the OP makes it sound, and it's a bit finicky and limited in how long it works.

Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

CSM max out at 3++ (MoT rules).

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

There's also the 2++ for the Nemesis Warding Stave but that's only in CC so it's not quite as terrible.

 Dantioch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

Nope. Mark of Tzeentch can't take them past a 3++. If you're rolling a 2++ using the Mark of Tzeentch you're cheating.

The real worry is where GW will take the powercreep now...There's crazy rules ignoring stuff all over the place. 2++ saves, rerollable 2+ saves, twin-linked ignores cover ap2/3 shooting... Where do they go next?

As far as I know that the only invul save I get is for my zooanthropes (which is 3++).

I know the DE can get a decent number of invul (I don't know which units or when) but they haven't gotten a new codex yet either. Orks are running around with a really old codex and I'd bet they're the next xenos to be updated.

Da Butcha wrote:
I don't know if it's the Invulnerable Saves or the prevalence of AP3 stuff, but I HATE the fact that Power Armor is basically unimpressive anymore. What is this, Mordheim? I want Chaos Space Marines that can advance into a hail of fire, not ones that have to hide from Storm Troopers.

Stormtroopers have been AP3 for 5 years, and Marines have never had much reason to fear them. There's not going to be much of a reason for that to change. AP3 is scary on paper, S3 18" Rapid Fire however is not, and even a modicum of cover can greatly mitigate that (20 BS4 hotshot lasgun shots against MEQ's in 5+ cover will kill a grand total of 3 Marines on average, not noticeably scarier than the same squad getting hit by an S6 AP4 pieplate). I'd trade that AP3 for any number of things in a heartbeat.

 fallinq wrote:
Cover saves are fine for the exact reasons you just listed. Invulnerable saves, on the other hand, have gotten out of hand. The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing, except perhaps at apocalypse level. If Invuls went back to being no better than 4+, it would be an improvement.

Edit: With multiple wounds, units to soak up wounds for characters, the fact that stuff still has to successfully roll to hit and to wound, and a well protected HQ will still have to fail Invul on 4+/5+ and/or FNP. Plus there's Eternal Warrior/high toughness to avoid Instant Death. Come on, guys. You don't need a 2+ Invulnerable save. Claiming you "need" to be able to ignore 5 out of every 6 attacks that come your way, no matter how strong they are (and those super strong, super AP, Ignore cover attacks cost a pretty penny) reeks of strategic laziness. Figure out how to maneuver better. 2+ rerollable invul makes 40k a twisted parody of itself. "Oh, after killing the rest of my squad and lobbing 36 attacks at me you managed to get a single wound. Now repeat that 2 more times. Shoot at me if you want, I can stand out in the open and rain psychic death all day, baby. You wanna charge? Come at me, Bro. It works just as well in CC. I think I'll challenge your character." I'm here to play one army against another, not a bunch of gun toting crooks going up against ing Superman.

Shadowfields do offer a 2++, but it goes away the moment you roll a one for the rest of the game. They're also only available on Dark Eldar archons to my knowledge.

Also; Hammernators, Zoans, and Wraiths wouldn't survive very long without their integral 3++ saves.

Back in ye olden days; while good invulnerable saves were a thing; there were quite a few options that messed with them or outright ignored them.

Now GW seems to believe that only D weapons should ever negatively affect invulnerable saves as evidenced by the stripping of all ignores invulnerable save effects, dropping reroll successful invulnerable saves/negating rerolled failed saves from the Swarmlord, Daemonhammer, and Psycannon, and I can bet you that when the next GK book drops the Vindicaire will lose shieldbreaker.

Of course one of these options was the Necron warscythe; and bringing back ways to counter invulnerable saves would probably solidify the royal court disco inferno's position as the punchiest death star ever (it's overshadowed by other Deathstars not because they hit harder, but because those stars are practically invulnerable and can fly across the board, also the Necron Deathstar will run you at over a thousand points, i.e Sanely costed).

The problem of course; is that most of these options were assault only, and the most annoying death stars rely on psychic spam or guns and move really, really fast. Only the Beast, Spyder, and Wraith star rely on getting up close and personal to my knowledge.

To deal with the psychic abilities; I suggest not nerfing psychic powers, but reverse the trend of nerfing psychic countering. Want your screamer star or uber-prince? Sure, as long as you don't mind rolling all your powers on a 3d6, at a stiff leadership penalty, with a good chance of it being stonewalled outright, sucking on a free perils, or any combination of the above.

Some option to dispel buffs or maledictions with your own psychic powers would also be good.

The first rule of any magic system is to always have ways to counter said magic system that anyone can have access to, preferably not entirely fool proof; but enough to make someone think twice about basing their game purely around said system so that more mundane systems can compete.

Belly wrote:
The real worry is where GW will take the powercreep now...There's crazy rules ignoring stuff all over the place. 2++ saves, rerollable 2+ saves, twin-linked ignores cover ap2/3 shooting... Where do they go next?

Destroyer Weapons.

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

 Purifier wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

One, single, solitary vindicaire.

Good when you'd only really see 2++s on shadowfield archons, not so good against screamerstar (it is however, good vs uber-princes) or beast star.

If there were more things that forced invulnerable saves to be rerolled if successful/outright ignored them like before and more ways to cockblock psykers the Screamer star would be less threatening.

 Kain wrote:
The first rule of any magic system is to always have ways to counter said magic system that anyone can have access to, preferably not entirely fool proof; but enough to make someone think twice about basing their game purely around said system so that more mundane systems can compete.

So... Deny the witch, anyone? But fair enough, I think there should be some way for psykers to take deny the witch rolls that don't directly affect them, including powers that normally don't have DtW saves taken against them.

Chrysis wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

Nope. Mark of Tzeentch can't take them past a 3++. If you're rolling a 2++ using the Mark of Tzeentch you're cheating.

Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

 Kain wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

One, single, solitary vindicaire.

Good when you'd only really see 2++s on shadowfield archons, not so good against screamerstar (it is however, good vs uber-princes) or beast star.

If there were more things that forced invulnerable saves to be rerolled if successful/outright ignored them like before and more ways to cockblock psykers the Screamer star would be less threatening.

So it manages to counter all but two very specific builds. That's hardly "absolutely no way to counter."

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

Nope. Mark of Tzeentch can't take them past a 3++. If you're rolling a 2++ using the Mark of Tzeentch you're cheating.

Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

Yes, yes it is. You are applying an OoO without any allowance to do so. MoT is VERY Clear that you cannot improve an inv save past 3++ with it, and you have just done EXACTLY that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You know I only thought of one model who can get a 2++ and that's the Archon, and the lose it the second they fail it. Who am I forgetting? Tzeentch Daemons with Grimore and luck?

Forewarning. If they have 12 chances on Divination, they have a very good chance of getting it. (7/8 or something like that.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

Yes, yes it is. You are applying an OoO without any allowance to do so. MoT is VERY Clear that you cannot improve an inv save past 3++ with it, and you have just done EXACTLY that.

The exact rule is "Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have +1 to their invulnerable save (to a maximum of 3+)." To me that seems the maximum applies only to the +1 from MoT, not any further boosts.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You know I only thought of one model who can get a 2++ and that's the Archon, and the lose it the second they fail it. Who am I forgetting? Tzeentch Daemons with Grimore and luck?

The screamer star is built for this.

With four heralds you have enough rolls to more or less garaunteed getting forewarning, and you hide the bearer of the grimoire within the unit of screamers and then run around spamming flickering fire and lamprey bites until everyone's dead.

LoS protects the Grimoire holder from getting sniped out and he can just refuse any and all challengers.

Not to mention he's on a jetbike so good luck catching him.

The other cheese build is the Uber-prince: Roll up forewarning, have fateweaver with the grimoire and slap on either a greater etherblade or a blade eternal. Try for biomancy goodies.

Remember the hulked out biomancy swarmlord? Well the Uber-Prince is far, far worse. With forewarning, iron arm, the eternal blade, and warp speed the prince reliably defeats any of the Forge World Primarchs or Daemon Lords.

You can also grimoire tzeentch units sitting on a skyshield. Because your Lord of Change deserves to be invincible.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

One, single, solitary vindicaire.

Good when you'd only really see 2++s on shadowfield archons, not so good against screamerstar (it is however, good vs uber-princes) or beast star.

If there were more things that forced invulnerable saves to be rerolled if successful/outright ignored them like before and more ways to cockblock psykers the Screamer star would be less threatening.

So it manages to counter all but two very specific builds. That's hardly "absolutely no way to counter."

Things it also doesn't stop:

Jetlock seer council

*Multiple* Uber-princes (sure only one will have a 2++ rerollable, but as long as the grimoire bearer lives they can switch the target)

Khorne dogs

Brother Michael wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The first rule of any magic system is to always have ways to counter said magic system that anyone can have access to, preferably not entirely fool proof; but enough to make someone think twice about basing their game purely around said system so that more mundane systems can compete.

So... Deny the witch, anyone? But fair enough, I think there should be some way for psykers to take deny the witch rolls that don't directly affect them, including powers that normally don't have DtW saves taken against them.

Deny the witch blocks maledictions and witchfire, but GW seems to think that blocking blessings is overpowered; despite blessings being the biggest problem.

The ability to strip away blessings or more directly interfere with the manifestation of powers is a must.

Nope...they need to add Really Really We Mean It Invul saves since they let D weapons in the game.