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Hello all. . .

I am just wondering what your opinions are on taking archers, over spearmen, or visa versa. . .

I am working on my first 1000 list for a possible High Elf army, and so far either one seems to work very well on paper. . .

Currently I am going for an extremely heavy magic army, with 2 squads of 10 archers, and 2 repeater bolt throwers, but I am beginning to think that perhaps I am focusing to much on ranged attacks, and that replacing the archers with spearmen might be better?

Never take HE archers. Ever.

Spearmen can work in a MSU list, in theory, but the strongest builds are magic-heavy or cav-heavy. Spearmen and archers play no part in either. I'd pick up a box of Silver Helms. The HE don't have much going for them, but they do have Silver Helms.

Of course, if given the choice between Spearmen and Archers, I'd still go with Spearmen.   HE archers are just worthless.

Why would you say that High Elf archers are useless?  I am not arguing but I would like to understand your reasoning?

BS4, seems pretty good and with a long bow don't they have a reach of 24?  Is the problem their lower strength?  Or is it just considered conventional wisdom no one questions?

I've been playing high elves since they came out in 6th Ed, and spearmen and archers are not useless, just a little tougher to get the hang of. In my mind the archers are overpriced. 12 points for a guy with a strength 3 longbow and no armor kind of stinks. The wood elves pay the same price for more special abilities. Other armies get equal or better damage output for less cost (see the empire handgunners). I'd gladly take the brettonian bowmen who are exactly the same except that they're 1/2 the points, BS 3, and start the game with stakes in the ground to slow down chargers. Twice the shots will beat out one better ballistic skill almost any day. All that said, I tend to take a unit of 10 archers in every army. They are useful for killing things like fast cav or small units of flyers that I'd rather not have to waste RBT's or magic on. High Elves are all about maneuvre and killing the other guys' fast stuff quickly is the best way to take control of the battlefield. As for spearmen. Most tournament HE lists are all cav and magic. Unfortunately those lists get trounced by armies like vamps who just wont break from a cav charge, and brettonians who have better cavalry, and still get some cheap pesant blocks for support. An HE infantry army is best used defensively. Stay back and let the other guy come to you. Use your shooting and magic to take out his fast cav and whittle down his ranks. Use your eagles and shadow warriors to stop him from marching so you can shoot and magic him longer. Your silver helm units (5-6 helms with maybe a champion, no standards are most common) and reavers swing around his flanks and then when he gets close your spearmen hit him in the front while your cav hits him in the sides and/or rear. HE infantry HAS to break the enemy on the charge or they'll just get whittled down. A 5+ save isn't that great. So combined tactics are the key. I saw a post recently on a high elf forum where guys were saying that in their biggest wins their infantry blocks won't see combat until turn 4 or even later. It'll take time to get the hang of it, but high elves can win, just not as easily as other armies. good luck Steve

Agreed. Spears can be solid against the right opponents, including undead. You just need to protect them from enemy magic and shooting to keep their rank bonus up. Archers are really too expensive for what they do, but I can see Steve?s point about taking a minimal unit of 10 purely to shoot at fast cav and occasionally to knock some rank bonus off light-armored infantry blocks. RBTs will usually be much more effective dedicated shooty units, take up less frontage, and are cheaper than ten archers.

Would it make sense to keep the 10 archers back near one of your repeater bolt throwers, to deal with the flyers that he might try to charge it?

Might work.

Most of the usual WM-hunting flyers are T3 flying skirmishers. Harpies, Furies, Fellbats, Warhawk Riders, Terradons. The latter three have two wounds per model. Great Eagles are another common one, and are T4, though easier to hit since they don?t skirmish.

At short range you?d be looking at 5 hits against the skirmishing guys, 2.5 wounds, and usually 2.5 dead since most of them don?t have saves worth anything. The furies do have a 5+, which will drop you down to an average of 1.66 dead. So you?re looking at two dead harpies, one dead Warhawk (6+ save, average of 2.1 wounds), about the same for Terradons (can?t recall if they have a save) and Fellbats. This will on average cause a Panic test for the Harpies, Hawks, or a small unit of Terradons, which the Harpies will usually fail (Ld5 or 6), and the Warhawks (Ld8) and Terradons will usually pass (cold-blooded). Furies and Bats aren?t subject to Panic.

A Great Eagle is easier to hit (6.66 hits at short), but harder to wound (5+ equals 2.22 on average out of his three wounds).

So most of these units will still be alive to charge even after a short-range volley from your archers. They may be softened up enough for your warmachine crew to have a chance (particularly the Eagle or Harpies), but most of them are still going to be throwing several attacks at your crew. The worse news is that if they charge from long range (which they usually will with a 20? range) you?re only looking at a 1/3 hit ratio for the skirmishers, or 50/50 against the Eagle, which drops the casualty rates down low enough to lose that Panic test against the units which you would get it against.

The verdict is basically that one unit of archers will not generally do the job on their own, though they may be a useful supplement to the fire of one of your RBTs or some magic. The other way you can use them to help, if you have the hill available, is to deploy the archers in two ranks, positioned to also counter-charge if the flyers hit your RBT and the crew holds. On a hill you can still all fire when in two ranks, and if you charge the flyers you?ll get some first swings, and add a rank, outnumber, and possibly a flank to the equation.

There's also a kind of psychological factor to consider when using spearmen and archers. Because when you play against inexperienced players they will seem threatening. When I have played against new players they get real sweaty when they see a unit or two of archers with two units of spearmen sitting right in the middle of your line. This is kind of odd as an elf player because you don?t really expect them to do as much as other units. When this happens the newer player might also target your archers/spearmen with spells/shooting which is much preferable to your silverhelms or swordmasters taking the punishment. But then there is also a good chance you'll be playing against better more experienced players who may not do this. But it is always nice to have a bit of shooting and infantry support every once in a while. Also, both units really shine in smaller games in which the opponent will not have that many models so the 3 or so kills that your archers inflict may cause panic.