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The real question might be who cares since we all know the Dark Angels and Lion El Johnson are really chaos heretics..... so even if they were originally
native american esque the inquisition will presently be on its ways to virus bomb them all anyway. I guess history does repeat itslf.

Posted By Ahtman on 11/20/2006 5:30 PM
Wasn't it the Deathwing that adopted the feathers and other Native Iconagraphy because many of the members at that time came from a planet (remember, they don't have a planet) that was similiar to the NA NAtive Americans.      

That's what we've been discussing.

Not sure what you mean by 'they don't have a planet'... They have many planets that they recruit from. That was the case even before Caliban was destroyed.

I believe that the inference in the original Deathwing story was that, while based on Caliban, the Dark Angels recruited solely from the (Native American-ish cultured) planet featured in the story.


Of course, you could take that as simply meaning that at that particular point in time, they only recruited from there. Maybe it was the near destruction of their homeworld that prompted them to start recruiting from other worlds...

Posted By brettz123
since we all know the Dark Angels and Lion El Johnson are really chaos heretics. 

We do?

No matter what the First Company will always have the NA iconography. My guess behind these models having it would be either First Compant Veterans, Captains, or Honor Guard models for one of the Characters they re-do.

Best part of the Deathwing story has to be the part about the initiation ritual where they give you drugs to keep you lucid, put you on a table, cut you open, examin your interna organs and lay them out on the table for the day. Then if you are still alive they stick you back up and you're in.

I am so tempted to make a joke about the current initiation rituals involvings drugs, tables and internal organ examination. Those poor poor Initiates never knew what hit them.

Ahtman, you might want to read the thread instead of just posting...

Posted By malfred on 11/20/2006 4:19 PM
Interesting. So the DA logo is modeled on and not painted?

Looks like it. Good god are those pics HF linked make them only look even more ridiculously over the top. Blarghh. Such a change from the kickin rad Ezekiel, Asmodai and Azrael figs from back in the day that are still top notch sculpts (and, sadly, apparently no longer available and/or out of production). Worse, these awesome figs are being replaced by this crap? Ugh.

Anyhow, regarding my earlier comment, I don't really care what was written in Deathwing or the Angels of Death 'dex, how *I* reconciled the giant plot holes and discontinuous fluff was only some people came from that planet, not the entire chapter. Whatever, it really doesn't matter since GW has made major changes to the Dark Angel's fluff without any regard to what was previously written several times.

If you read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe you would know.......

Posted By brettz123 on 11/20/2006 6:42 PM
If you read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe you would know.......

Do we have to?

Posted By brettz123 on 11/20/2006 6:42 PM
If you read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe you would know.......

...that it was a story told from the point of view of one of the Fallen, not a factual account of what 'actually' happened.

Unless the Fallen know the actual truth.

Eeep, there I go waving my e-peen.

Well, yeah, they were there, so presumably they know what actually happened.

But what actually happened, and what one of the Fallen is going to say happened, are not necessarily the same thing...

I'm sure if I was in danger of being tortured and executed as a Heretic, I'd be pretty tempted to claim that it was all a misunderstanding and I was actually the good guy as well.

Posted By malfred on 11/20/2006 7:15 PM
Unless the Fallen know the actual truth.

Eeep, there I go waving my e-peen.

That pen is going to be the death of you, Felix.

I had read the others, I was agreeing with those that were trying to point out that it was part of their past. I was just adding that, as we know, the DA's work out of the rock and recruit from other planets, and that it's not out of the realm of possibility that one of those planets would have something that resembled Native American culture. Like I stated, I was just weighing in on the "some feathers are ok and fluffy" side.

True but do that have to be giant mutant freak feathers? Considering that Marines are supposed to be like 2.5M tall in full armor those must be some big damn birds. I am wondering which of the other Seasme Street residents their cloaks are made of.

I would just like to state my love for that sword again. I am going to have allot of trouble resisting the urge to put that model in my mouth. It just looks so tasty.

Atma likes the sword. Who knew?

I'm sure that there are Space Emus and Space Condors that posess powerful pituitary processes, propagating profligate plumage in perpetuity.

i'm not too wild about tomahawk there, dunno they are really eh. too static?

Posted By Jester on 11/20/2006 4:31 PM

It makes for a nice story, but it is simply naive to think that there will still be caucusoids, negroids, mongoloids and other -oids in 38,000 years.  Odds are that we'll all be a nice even shade of medium beige, or possibly taupe.  Some of us will be Putty, but they will be laughed at.

And before you ask,  yes, I did minor in cultural anthopology.

I guess the main thing to remember is that Dark Angels have wings, and what are on those wings? Yeppers, you guessed it, feathers.

I agree since I think by 38000 years from now we'll all be red with horns cause the space demons will eat our soles and the space emperor ain't real he's just like santa claus and superman and JFK and all those other made up guys so the space demons will eat us unless the green monsters or the space bugs eat us first!

Hey kids! Jester brought realism into a discussion of GW!!

Jester

And he brought the P&L smiley out of retirement! Mocking...too intense...must retort...

So on top of interior decorating and running around in dressed the DAs now keep an Emu, correction Space Emu, farm? Yeah that sounds about right. But they will have the comfiest pillows of all the Marine Chapters.

What will they do with the rest of our bodies once they eat the bottom of our feet?

We sure as hell won't be jellin', I can tell you that.

the feathers are not from the emu's, they are from the watchers of the dark who are really DODO's, though extinct for many years but the truth wass the DA had them for there supply of feathers.

No, the feathers are trophies from all of the Lords of Change they slay. It just shows how righteous they are that they can wear them without succombing to the taint.

Hehehe, he said "taint."

actually he said succoming and taint in the same sentence..  ooohhhh

is that pervert speach for something??

Insaniak,
You are always so negative . It wasn't told from the point of view of one of the fallen. The part pertaining to the Horus Heresy was told from the point of view of Cypher. Very interesting stuff by the way. And it really did seem not only that the Lion was, shall we say, just a little less than loyal to the Emperor but that the current Dark Angels perhaps should be a little bit more loyal themselves. Very interesting book. Always thought that he hould have written another one the way.
So if you have not read the book you should. But if you haven't the essentiallly a small command squad of Dark Angels goes to a planet which I believe they are going to recruit new initiates from. Led by a Chaplain. This is going to be a little sketchy on some of the details because it has been about four years since I read the book. Anyway Cypher shows up and they decide they have to catch him. It goes through this whole thing where he tells them how the fallen see what happened in the Horus Heresy. Essentially the fallen believe that Lion El'Johnson did not fight with the Emperor for Terra because he was waiting to see who was going to win and then Luther called him out on it and the Fallen marines were really the ones that were loyal to the emperor. Now is this true? Well we don't really know but it makes for some really good reading, his argument is really logical when he talks about some of the other stuff, and the chaplain believes it too.
So if you never read any of the black library books this is the one you really should read. And amazingly enough Gav Thorpe is actually a good writer.

So yes the Dark Angels hide a very nasty little secret and that isnt that part of the Chapter succumbed to chaos it is that their Primarch wasn't as loyal to the Emperor as he should have been.

What a terrible pair of minis.

Subjectively, the pose is too static (mentioned previously) and the details lifeless. Look at the cloth on the figures; it hangs like some sort of idealised fabric from a deco-era poster. Look at the flat and boxy feathers. Even apart from the pose, nothing about the figure suggests any sort of movement or use; everything is pristine and dangles unaffected by wind or inertia. These are models of statues of Dark Angles. Naturally, this is all simply my opinion on the matter, so take it as you will.

However, objectively, these miniatures aren't even particularly good for gaming. They only have one hand as one entire arm is concealed by an ugly cloak. Either you'll have to contend with Dark Angle commanders having only one weapon or use a different minature for your commander. Well, that is unless you think that bolt pistols and power swords look fine hanging off the belt despite being rediculously oversized.

Posted By brettz123 on 11/21/2006 8:45 AM
It wasn't told from the point of view of one of the fallen. The part pertaining to the Horus Heresy was told from the point of view of Cypher.

... which makes a big difference, because Cypher is so much more trustworthy than any other Fallen...

Posted By brettz123 on 11/21/2006 8:45 AM
his argument is really logical when he talks about some of the other stuff, and the chaplain believes it too.

Of course it is, and of course the Chaplain believes it. That's what Cypher does. He wanders about the Galaxy spreading discord, distrust, and stale cookies.

You don't think that casting doubts on the loyalty of the Emperor's number one Chapter fits that job description...?

That is just what the Dark Angels and the inquisition want you to believe. As we all know everytime cypher visits a planet and starts some trouble that planet ends up being a stronger bastion of imperial faith afterwards.... even Abbadon has wondered about that. So yes I would say that Cypher probably is more trustworthy . He does carry the lion sword after all.......

Posted By Triggerbaby on 11/21/2006 12:16 PM

What a terrible pair of minis.

However, objectively, these miniatures aren't even particularly good for gaming. They only have one hand as one entire arm is concealed by an ugly cloak. Either you'll have to contend with Dark Angle commanders having only one weapon or use a different minature for your commander. Well, that is unless you think that bolt pistols and power swords look fine hanging off the belt despite being rediculously oversized.

I have to disagree with this.... what an awesome way to hide a powerfist > .... now its like..... BAM my veteran sergeant has a power fist hiding behind is cloak that acts like a free storm shield...... ahhhh that must be it.  The Dark Angels probably get free storm shields if you take a model with a cloak and when on campaign it can double as a tent.  Now it all makes sense.  It is just about being practical.