Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You don't convict people of murder because you don't like them.

I think likeability COULD play a part for some jurors, definitely.

It certainly does. I was trying to point out that it shouldn't.

Of course not - people shouldn't murder each other, either! Take a look out of your window, the world's not perfect - more's the pity...

Albatross wrote:Of course not - people shouldn't murder each other, either! Take a look out of your window, the world's not perfect - more's the pity...

Wait wait wait.

You're not?

...Crap.

No, you're not - put that knife down. It's naughty.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/clinton-offers-knox-hope-as-26year-jail-term-begins-1835523.html

..avoid the comments section like the plague, but that's fairly standard behaviour online these days.

Albatross wrote:Knox's parents annoyed me the most, as they didn't seem to care about the fact a young girl had been brutally murdered and sexually assaulted, even though anyone with half a brain could see she was involved to SOME degree. All they seemed to care about was making sure their daughter 'got off'. Now her Dad has the cheek to criticise the Italian justice system!

He's a father. Of course he's going to leap to his daughter's defense. Having raised her from a baby the odds are he can't possibly imagine his little girl doing anything like she's being accused of and therefore believes her innocent. Given that of course he's going to fight tooth and nail for her. You have no idea if he cares about the victim or not but even if he feels deep sympathy for her and her family his first priority is going to be his still living daughter and keeping her from going to jail in a forgein country for a large part of her life. Given the facts we've been present with as the public it's not hard to see how he might wind up critizising the Italian system. He didn't act out of character for a father.

reds8n wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/clinton-offers-knox-hope-as-26year-jail-term-begins-1835523.html

..avoid the comments section like the plague, but that's fairly standard behaviour online these days.

criminally slow pace of Italian justice

I'm not sure the US court system has any room to talk. It isn't exactly a shining beacon of efficiency itself. I'm also not sure that prosecutors being confident is a real criticism. i can't recall ever seeing an interview with a prosecutor where they balked, backpedaled, and apologized for being on a case.

The Independent wrote:Italy does not have the contempt of court laws that in the UK come into play the moment a suspect is charged in order to prevent the publication of material that might influence a jury.

I thought the USA was the same in this respect (that is, no sub judice protection of evidence.)

Kilkrazy wrote:

The Independent wrote:Italy does not have the contempt of court laws that in the UK come into play the moment a suspect is charged in order to prevent the publication of material that might influence a jury.

I thought the USA was the same in this respect (that is, no sub judice protection of evidence.)

It can, but there are multiple factors involved.

Tyyr wrote:

Albatross wrote:Knox's parents annoyed me the most, as they didn't seem to care about the fact a young girl had been brutally murdered and sexually assaulted, even though anyone with half a brain could see she was involved to SOME degree. All they seemed to care about was making sure their daughter 'got off'. Now her Dad has the cheek to criticise the Italian justice system!

He's a father. Of course he's going to leap to his daughter's defense. Having raised her from a baby the odds are he can't possibly imagine his little girl doing anything like she's being accused of and therefore believes her innocent. Given that of course he's going to fight tooth and nail for her. You have no idea if he cares about the victim or not but even if he feels deep sympathy for her and her family his first priority is going to be his still living daughter and keeping her from going to jail in a forgein country for a large part of her life. Given the facts we've been present with as the public it's not hard to see how he might wind up critizising the Italian system. He didn't act out of character for a father.

I am a Father. My concern would be making sure the guilty party was brought to justice, no matter what that meant.

Well not all fathers are willing to let someone else judge their children and tell them what kind of people they are.

That's true, based on emotion, and many parents would be the same.

The system of justice is founded on letting someone else judge your children. Rationally it is fairer to all that way.

Some parents hate their children.

My only issue with the whole affair is this, when the US wants to put a citizen of another country on trial we usually have to take the death penalty off the table, concede that life will equal no more than 25 years and make all kinds of concessions to the persons Govt. On the other hand if it is a US citizen on trial in a foreign country god help you. Our State Department will sell you out in a heartbeat. I don’t think this woman was given a fair trial at all. I guess for me life is cheap, if someone I disliked, especially a roommate was murdered I would probably cheer out loud and rummage through there crap to get my gak back. Guess in Italy that makes me guilty.

It could make you guilty here as well. Its not really the best idea to show a clear disregard for the life of a victim in the course of a murder investigation.

That's true, based on emotion, and many parents would be the same.

The system of justice is founded on letting someone else judge your children. Rationally it is fairer to all that way.

Some parents hate their children.

I hope that's not aimed at me, mate.

Believing that justice must be done, and not closing your mind to the fact that your offspring may be guilty of a hideous crime does not mean that I hate my son.
As a parent you don't always believe that your child can do no wrong - the increasing presence of such beliefs is causing all kinds of problems in our school system. My partner is a teacher, and that sort of parental attitude totally destroys teachers' authority. But I digress.
Kurt Knox's attitude stinks - he has shown total disregard for the family of the girl his daughter murdered.

Albatross wrote:

That's true, based on emotion, and many parents would be the same.

The system of justice is founded on letting someone else judge your children. Rationally it is fairer to all that way.

Some parents hate their children.

I hope that's not aimed at me, mate.

Believing that justice must be done, and not closing your mind to the fact that your offspring may be guilty of a hideous crime does not mean that I hate my son.
As a parent you don't always believe that your child can do no wrong - the increasing presence of such beliefs is causing all kinds of problems in our school system. My partner is a teacher, and that sort of parental attitude totally destroys teachers' authority. But I digress.
Kurt Knox's attitude stinks - he has shown total disregard for the family of the girl his daughter murdered.

You are trying to sound reasonable, but you came off as sounding like someone who doesn't care about anything and/or someone who doesn't have children (or at least a close relationship with their children). It is possible to follow the categorical imperative, but it isn't as easy as you are playing it out to be. It is only that easy when it doesn't have to actually be applied. It is always easy to pretend to be in another situation when you aren't actually in it. Instead of judging the parents, why not just stick to the thing that is debatable, i.e. the case?

And you're coming off like someone who thinks I care about his opinion on my parenting skills.

Albatross wrote:And you're coming off like someone who thinks I care about his opinion on my parenting skills.

Oh suddenly you want to take things personal? You are going to be cool and objective when your child's life is in the balance but you can't even do it on the internet.

Nothing was said about your parenting skills either, just that you would have to be pretty distant to be able to disconnect that easily. It might be one thing if the case was actually obvious, such as a videotape of the person committing the crime where you don't have any choice but to deal with it but that isn't so in this case.

I'm not taking it personally at all Perhaps my post read more arsey than intended...

I'm wouldn't say I'm 'distant' - but perhaps I am a little 'old-fashioned'. I believe strongly in discipline and responsibility - mainly because I didn't recieve much growing up. I would give my son the benefit of the doubt, but if he was found guilty I would have to accept it.
I feel Knox's father's implication that his daughter hasn't recieved a fair trial, simply because it didn't take place in America, is supremely crass - she was found guilty of murder. Where are the words of consolation and remorse for the victim's family? That's all I'm saying.

To be fair to all sides. The way the trial has been portrayed in the U.S. and U.K. has been different. To Americans the Italian Justice system seems ill run and random. I keep hearing that Knox would not have been found guilty in the U.S. or U.K. based on the evidence. And the Jury wasn't suquested until the last week. Also there is much talk about her conviction being overturned on appeal, since that is the Italian form of Judicial balance.

So we will see.

Of course the trial was in Italy not the US or UK so all our maunderings about its suspect fairness are moot.

Let's wait and see the result of the appeal.

Regarding the parenting issue, if my daughter was a murder suspect I would give her up to the police. That makes me either a cold-hearted bastard or a very upright citizen, depending how you see things.

That guy in Japan who allegedly murdered the British girl and buried her body in a bath of sand was on the run for a couple of years. There's no way he could have done that without the help of family and/or friends.

Kilkrazy wrote:Regarding the parenting issue, if my daughter was a murder suspect I would give her up to the police. That makes me either a cold-hearted bastard or a very upright citizen, depending how you see things.

That is a whole different kettle of fish than sitting in court and being dispassionate. I'm not arguing that parents should hide their kids or anything of that nature, just that it is not as easy to do as it is to say. I would do the same thing as you but I'm not going to try and play it off like it would be an easy choice simply because it was the right thing to do. It would tear you up emotionally. Just because it might be the right thing to do ethically and morally doesn't mean it is easy or simple.

I never said it would be easy. The thing that WOULD be easy would be to not go bleating to the media with statements like 'what kind of justice system is this?'. He should have shown more dignity.

Albatross wrote:I never said it would be easy. The thing that WOULD be easy would be to not go bleating to the media with statements like 'what kind of justice system is this?'. He should have shown more dignity.

I bet you would just sit there with a thumb up your ass and watch them drag your family name through the mud. I find that highly unlikely. Unless you already know you failed a pareant and your kids will grow up to be POS. I would honestly go as far as murder, jury intimidation and bribery if I had. Then again I actually love my kids.

I bet you would just sit there with a thumb up your ass and watch them drag your family name through the mud. I find that highly unlikely.

Drag their name through the mud? She killed someone.

Unless you already know you failed a pareant and your kids will grow up to be POS.

I can't read this. Would you rather draw me a picture?

I would honestly go as far as murder, jury intimidation and bribery if I had. Then again I actually love my kids.

Such a moral world-view sets them a wonderful example no doubt.

All righty and on that point I think its time we shut this down as its getting flamy and starting to circle. Please PM if there is an objection.