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We know that they could before and I don't see any reason why they would want that to change. This just seems like some serious attempt at rules niggling for the ego boost .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
We know that they could before and I don't see any reason why they would want that to change. This just seems like some serious attempt at rules niggling for the ego boost .

It was previously FAQ'd for Tyranids only. They choose not to include this rule in the new Codex. Intentional?
You could try and argue intent for Tyranids only. Something like a CSM Daemon Prince has not been given anything to allow a DS.

rigeld2 wrote:
But at the beginning of the game it hasn't had a chance to move and hasn't "chosen" not to move.

So it's not gliding nor swooping.

Which is not what deviantduck was claiming. He actually applied that logic from an inturn scenario to the start of the game in a previous post.

You are also false in your assertion. If a FMC is on the table at the start of the game, it is automatically in "Glide" mode at the beginning of the game. Hence, as soon as you deploy a FMC it is in "Glide" mood. This is explicitly stated in the FMC rules in the BRB. The BRB rules also tell us how to change between "Glide" and "Swoop" at the beginning of the model's move. Therefore, it is clear that once deployed a FMC is in "Glide" mode until the controlling player changes it to "Swoop" and moves in such a way comply with the swooping FMC restrictions.

The problem is that by putting a FMC in reserves, the rules tell us that we have not deployed him. The rules only explicitly cover Glide vs Swoop mode for deployed models and then how to change between modes (at the start of the FMC's move). There is also no permission to choose a flight mode, so there is no RAW way to establish "Glide" or "Swoop."

That said, since both "Glide" and "Swoop" tell us the FMC moves "exactly like a jump monstrous creature", I think there is a clear RAI argument to allow them to deep strike.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Is it moving like JI right now? Doesn't matter.

Pure assumption, no fact.
The rule does not say "move like Jump unit, potentially at some point (maybe) in the future"

There is no "does it have potetential to sometimes move as a jump unit?"

The question from that rule is "does it move like a jump unit?"
And at the time it goes I to reserve, the answer is NO.

Saying "no, but in the future it might" does not fulfill the requirement for that rule.

Incorrect. The question is not 'does it move like a jump unit?' The criteria laid out in the Jump Infantry entry is, 'is it described as moving like jump unit?'

Is it described as such somewhere in the FMC entry?

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Is it moving like JI right now? Doesn't matter.

Pure assumption, no fact.
The rule does not say "move like Jump unit, potentially at some point (maybe) in the future"

There is no "does it have potetential to sometimes move as a jump unit?"

The question from that rule is "does it move like a jump unit?"
And at the time it goes I to reserve, the answer is NO.

Saying "no, but in the future it might" does not fulfill the requirement for that rule.

Incorrect. The question is not 'does it move like a jump unit?' The criteria laid out in the Jump Infantry entry is, 'is it described as moving like jump unit?'

Is it described as such somewhere in the FMC entry?

At the time it goes into reserve, no it Absolutley is not.
Can you provide any rule that allows it to select a fight mode during reserve?
If not, then no it isn't described as a jump unit.

Grendel, the rules do not say "described as a jump unit", they say "described as moving like a jump unit". I can point to rules that state that FMCs move like jump units. Since they are in fact described as moving like jump units, why would that clause not apply?

 Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, the rules do not say "described as a jump unit", they say "described as moving like a jump unit". I can point to rules that state that FMCs move like jump units. Since they are in fact described as moving like jump units, why would that clause not apply?

I can point out that when they go into reserve they are not described as moving like a jump unit.

The rule you have quoted isn't "described as jump unit maybe in the future (sometimes ish maybe potentially)".
It says described as moving like a jump unit. And at that point it isn't.

This is not similar a to the blast and preferred enemy. This is the same as getting a re-roll for a unit that doesn't have preferred enemy, but might get it later in the game.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, the rules do not say "described as a jump unit", they say "described as moving like a jump unit". I can point to rules that state that FMCs move like jump units. Since they are in fact described as moving like jump units, why would that clause not apply?

I can point out that when they go into reserve they are not described as moving like a jump unit.

The rule you have quoted isn't "described as jump unit maybe in the future (sometimes ish maybe potentially)".
It says described as moving like a jump unit. And at that point it isn't.

This is not similar a to the blast and preferred enemy. This is the same as getting a re-roll for a unit that doesn't have preferred enemy, but might get it later in the game.

Not does the rule say the unit must be described as moving like jump units at all times. Your interpretation of the rule is that it must always be described as moving as such. My interpretation is different. As such I see neither side budging and would like to submit a formal request to lock this thread (as well as the other) side both are going in circles.

 Happyjew wrote:
Not does the rule say the unit must be described as moving like jump units at all times. Your interpretation of the rule is that it must always be described as moving as such. My interpretation is different. As such I see neither side budging and would like to submit a formal request to lock this thread (as well as the other) side both are going in circles.

My interpretation is that if it's not a Jump unit, it can't use the rules for a jump unit.

How can a unit use a rule it does not have?

I know you're drawing a parallel with the Blast Re-Roll and Preferred Enemy. For an accurate parallel the unit would have to not yet have Preferred Enemy, but only the potential to gain it later on.

Simple truth, it is not described as moving like a jump unit when it goes into reserve.
That fails the requirement of your quoted rule.
Via another rule it can gain the description of moving like a jump unit, but not during reserve.
It's not a given, it's entirely possible for a FMC to not be treated as a jump unit throughout the entire duration of a game (tabling before a successful reserve roll).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
would like to submit a formal request to lock this thread

I'd support that, it has dragged on too long.
I'm glad you joined the debate with an actual rules based argument. I can see where you're coming from, just don't agree with the interpretation

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Is it moving like JI right now? Doesn't matter.

Pure assumption, no fact.
The rule does not say "move like Jump unit, potentially at some point (maybe) in the future"

There is no "does it have potetential to sometimes move as a jump unit?"

The question from that rule is "does it move like a jump unit?"
And at the time it goes I to reserve, the answer is NO.

Saying "no, but in the future it might" does not fulfill the requirement for that rule.

Incorrect. The question is not 'does it move like a jump unit?' The criteria laid out in the Jump Infantry entry is, 'is it described as moving like jump unit?'

Is it described as such somewhere in the FMC entry?

At the time it goes into reserve, no it Absolutley is not.
Can you provide any rule that allows it to select a fight mode during reserve?
If not, then no it isn't described as a jump unit.

You did not answer my question.

The rule does not care if they are described as being a jump unit.
The rule does not care if they are currently moving like a jump unit.
The rule only cares if they are described as moving like a jump unit.

"Units that are described as 'moving like'Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Are FMCs described as moving like jump units?

 Abandon wrote:

You did not answer my question.

The rule does not care if they are described as being a jump unit.
The rule does not care if they are currently moving like a jump unit.
The rule only cares if they are described as moving like a jump unit.

"Units that are described as 'moving like'Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Are FMCs described as moving like jump units?

No they're not.

They can use a rule to later be described as moving like jump units.
But by default, no they are not.

And during reserve? Most certainly not.

We probably only need one of these...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270/576454.page#6496669