Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Shotgun wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


The issue isn't that sometimes the player is referred to by the wrong pronoun, it's when they are exclusively male pronouns. You could read the entire rulebook to 40k and never get even the slightest hint that women ever play the game. Other games avoid this problem in various ways. Some say "his or her" (MTG cards, for example), but my personal favorite is switching randomly between male and female pronouns for each section of rules. This provides gender neutrality, but avoids the awkward "is this really allowed" problems with using "they" as a singular pronoun.

You could read the entire 40K rule book and never get the slightest hint on what the actual rules are as well. I am less concerned about pronoun gender and more concerned about a tight rule set. Every female I have ever played with has expressed the same opinion.

Also...you don't NEED to get any hint from the rulebook that women play 40k. That's not what the fething rules are for - they're a set of instructions on how to play a game, not an equality and diversity brochure on how wonderfully diverse the p layer community is.

If it helps the clarity of the rules, then by all means, call player A He and player B She. Or refer to a Dungeon Master as She and all players as He. But arbitrarily using female pronouns just to give the impression that girls play the game is needless complication and pandering to people who get offended if there isn't a balanced ratio of Hes and Shes.

Besides,it doesn't matter what the feth the rulebook says. If a player does not meet girls in his local gaming circles who play the game, clubs and gws etc, then he will not get the impression that girls play it.

I attended an independent LOTR tournament in April. Out of the 50 or so people there, t he only female was t h e "waitress" ( went round talking orders periodically for drinks and snacks, and operated the bar). In my 10 years playing lotr sbg, I don't recall ever meeting a female player. Doesn't mean I think there is no female players anywhere, but it does give me the impression that they're extremely rare.

No number of female pronouns in a rulebook will ever override that impression derived rom personal experience.

Speaking of being overzealously PC, the new D&D 5th edition also includes a section explaining that you can play a homosexual, transvestite or transgender character. Apparently I've been playing D&D all wrong cause my characters' sexuality never came up in 15 years of chopping Orc heads.

Wow, this thread did indeed go south fast.

*Pulls up comfy chair and popcorn to watch the grammar wars*

What is this thing "GIRL" you speak of? Are you referring to the hellish beings of slaanesh?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Speaking of being overzealously PC, the new D&D 5th edition also includes a section explaining that you can play a homosexual, transvestite or transgender character. Apparently I've been playing D&D all wrong cause my characters' sexuality never came up in 15 years of chopping Orc heads.

I don't think I fully understand this. Was there something in previous editions that prevented someone from playing a character like that?
I only have experience playing Rouge Trader and Firefly, and never needed permission on how to dress my character.

Although I usually played a Kroot and had to take a -20 perception check to even register the other character's genders. Had another player get mutated by a psychic peril and my Kroot thought the character went through puberty.

Anyone else notice that there are much less women playing 40K than other wargames? One of the FLGSs I go to has about a 25 percent female population on warmachine days, although I find they don't go to the store to play as frequently.

Wow. What a thread.

I'm gonna start using "it" as the pronoun of choice when referring to a given person of any characteristics. I think that'll clear up confusion.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I don't think I fully understand this. Was there something in previous editions that prevented someone from playing a character like that?

Not to my knowledge. But I guess some Social Justice Warriors (TM) will assume that anything that isn't explicitly allowed is being intentionally oppressed. And there exist people who count the ratio of male vs female character illustrations in D&D sourcebooks.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Not to my knowledge. But I guess some Social Justice Warriors (TM) will assume that anything that isn't explicitly allowed is being intentionally oppressed. And there exist people who count the ratio of male vs female character illustrations in D&D sourcebooks.

The only limit I really see is that most setting rely on our understanding of the real middle and dark ages. The settings generally are more open ended since I know here is little GMs actually have to limit what they include in the setting. The only reasonable thing I could see is a mention in the campaign sections that would state the view of the general populace and if the character would be more or less open about their sexuality and attire.

This is one of those, possibly right attempt but wrong execution moves to me. Unless DnD has specific armor and clothing for men and women in stats and abilities, it just seems lost on me.

The alternating player gender throughout rulebooks is a good stop-gap measure (his/her, he/she).

Think English is bad?
Try French as a second language!

I want to know who formed the committee on assigning male and female to inanimate objects?!
Usually the first giveaway of a newbie in French speaking is getting the gender wrong.

Only way to get away from this little discussion is to assign a universal "it" to everything since we do not need a reminder through all discussions of the male or female nature of the subject.

"Girl" viewpoint, I asked my wife once if she felt she was included when she gamed with us, she said: "It felt creepy... too much attention, don't they go out and see women other than their sisters or moms?". This was about when I stopped asking questions around this line.

French is a romance language which stemmed from Latin, if I remember correctly. Latin assigned gender on inanimate objects as well, so French might've gotten it from there.

I'm curious if in the three pages of this thread, any actual women have responded to the question?

Edit: It kind of feels like a bunch of dudes arguing about how a women should or shouldn't feel about a topic; which is silly.

 Easy E wrote:
Edit: It kind of feels like a bunch of dudes arguing about how a women should or shouldn't feel about a topic; which is silly.

Agreed, that is why quotes from the lady-folk will do if lacking their presence.

 Easy E wrote:
I'm curious if in the three pages of this thread, any actual women have responded to the question?

IMO, the pronouns used in a ruleset are among the less important issues with women in the hobby. Its more important that the rules are actually good.

Whole lot of "it's not a problem because it doesn't affect me personally" going on in this thread.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Speaking of being overzealously PC, the new D&D 5th edition also includes a section explaining that you can play a homosexual, transvestite or transgender character. Apparently I've been playing D&D all wrong cause my characters' sexuality never came up in 15 years of chopping Orc heads.

I don't think I fully understand this. Was there something in previous editions that prevented someone from playing a character like that?
I only have experience playing Rouge Trader and Firefly, and never needed permission on how to dress my character.

Although I usually played a Kroot and had to take a -20 perception check to even register the other character's genders. Had another player get mutated by a psychic peril and my Kroot thought the character went through puberty.

While it wasn't expressly forbidden, previous editions only adressed gender options as being male or female. This revision seems to me to be a simple and effective way of saying "this game is for you too." It's a nod of recognition.

 heartserenade wrote:
French is a romance language which stemmed from Latin, if I remember correctly. Latin assigned gender on inanimate objects as well, so French might've gotten it from there.

Misconception.

"Gender" was not assigned to anything. The entire concept of "gender" in language is a relatively recent scholarly invention resulting from professional study of the language.

It just happened that some words used the same articles and phonetic endings as were used when talking about a male, some were the same as that used when talking about a female, and some were the same as those used when talking about something neither male nor female. These associations had nothing to do with whether or not something was perceived as being masculine or feminine (or other) or because there was a need to "assign" gender to everything. It merely had to do with how the language developed organically over the course of millennia.

But, there was never anyone sitting around 2000+ years ago saying, "Ok, we have this new object we've been exposed to. Is it more like a woman, more like a man, or more like neither one?" That entire idea is a scholarly creation of the last couple centuries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I'm curious if in the three pages of this thread, any actual women have responded to the question?

IMO, the pronouns used in a ruleset are among the less important issues with women in the hobby. Its more important that the rules are actually good.

And even more important that the other players aren't creepy douchebags, and the gaming area isn't a disgusting, stinky hole.