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 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

its interesting cause Abaddon has so much hatred towards Horus.....his own mentor...


why? i mean does he still care, think about Horus during the 13th black crusade "what would Horus do" or has he totally forgotten about him

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

 PhillyT wrote:


Grey knight equipment isn't better than Custodes. It is the same. As far as the psychic route, an individual Grey Knight barely registers as a psychic. They are a low level power who are taught to focus their power with their brothers to achieve a tangible effect. I wouldn't think they could do much other than charge their force weapon in a fight with a Custodes one on one.

Custodians don't get access to powerful sorcery or Nemesis Force Weapons.

Don't they? They still have access to Hammerhand, which switches the physical advantage. Now the Marine is stronger.


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 PhillyT wrote:


I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Luther amplified by Chaos would tear Abby to pieces, in all likelihood.

Standard Grey Knights aren't powerful psychers. And yes, Grey Knights have force weapons, but all Custodes have power halberds.

As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

All GK are powerful psykers. Some are just more powerful than others, but there is no non-Psyker Grey Knight. An ML 1 Psyker is one potent badass psyker, being delta-grade, at least.

They are pretty low level as far as psykers go.

 PhillyT wrote:
All it says in the Abnett example is the person wouldn't want to place a bet.

It says no one would, not any specific person, and this is before Guilliman removed the weakness from the Space Marines.

 PhillyT wrote:
It is a general statement, but by the same token we are specifically told that both TW and Custodes are larger and stronger than astartes for the reasons already mentioned.

We are also told that Space marines are the most powerful and feared warriors of the Imperium.

 PhillyT wrote:
I can't recall the book, but astartes are referred to as wolves (pack hunters) while Custodes are lions (individual hunters).

Also silly, seeing as how Lions hunt in groups for groups.

 PhillyT wrote:
Standard Grey Knights aren't powerful psychers. And yes, Grey Knights have force weapons, but all Custodes have power halberds.

Grey Knights are all very potent psykers, actually. Only one in a million is strong enough and their recruitment ground is the entire Imperium.
Force Weapons > power weapons. Storm Bolters > bolter.

Only on the table-top. An ML1 IG Psyker is still, in comparison to all psykers in the Imperium, pants-gakkingly powerful. An ML3 Psyker is a beta-grade/low-alpha level psyker... which is considered "godlike" in some cultures.

The problem is that the tabletop game only has a limited range of powers, and none of them are well-balanced, and a limited way to apply those powers. It also focuses almost all of its powers to offensive applications, with a sprinkling of psychic "buffs" in some armies and some units. With a wider range of powers (properly balanced), having psykers who could heal, create telekinetic (or temporal) shields, remove units from the flow of time, create mental illusions/hallucinations, mind-control enemy units or similar psychic feats, an ML1 unit would appear more potent than they currently do.

But an ML1 psyker is still a powerful psyker. Especially in the GK. Weak psykers need not apply.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Not only do I disagree with your assertion, it is based on an incorrect premise - note how he asked about both being amped.

Easy win for Horus.


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 PhillyT wrote:


As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

Source?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, as the supped up chosen, Abaddon would beat an unpowered Horus. I mean didn't The Lion struggle against his Chaos infused Foster father?

do you think chaos amped abaddon vs. chaos amped horus would at least be an interesting fight

No, Horus would toss him around.

I can't imagine that would be the case. In the fluff, being chaos infused was enough to make sub-marines like Luthor a match or challenge for The Lion. Abaddon was already almost the size of Abaddon, I would imagine with all that power funneled in he would be above him.

Not only do I disagree with your assertion, it is based on an incorrect premise - note how he asked about both being amped.

Easy win for Horus.


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 PhillyT wrote:


As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing.

My claim is Horus is more powerful than Abaddon when both are charged up. Abaddon would be better than Horus if Abaddon was charged and Horus was not.

If Luthor, an augmented warrior but non-space marine, was able to fight The Lion when he was charged up with chaos power (he wasn't the chosen of all four chaos gods like Horus and Abaddon), then Abaddon, already the cream of the Sons of Horus, infused with all four chaos gods, could defeat Horus unaugmented.

But I suppose that assumes the The Lion is only slightly below Horus in combat ability and that Abaddon is better than Luthor from the start and that being the chosen of chaos would imply more power than just a guy giving himself over to chaos.

Source?

Well Luthor wasn't the chosen of chaos. He gave himself over to chaos and was rewarded, but I wouldn't think that pops him above the guy who took the mantle of chosen from Horus.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Only on the table-top. An ML1 IG Psyker is still, in comparison to all psykers in the Imperium, pants-gakkingly powerful. An ML3 Psyker is a beta-grade/low-alpha level psyker... which is considered "godlike" in some cultures.

The problem is that the tabletop game only has a limited range of powers, and none of them are well-balanced, and a limited way to apply those powers. It also focuses almost all of its powers to offensive applications, with a sprinkling of psychic "buffs" in some armies and some units. With a wider range of powers (properly balanced), having psykers who could heal, create telekinetic (or temporal) shields, remove units from the flow of time, create mental illusions/hallucinations, mind-control enemy units or similar psychic feats, an ML1 unit would appear more potent than they currently do.

But an ML1 psyker is still a powerful psyker. Especially in the GK. Weak psykers need not apply.

I understand where you are coming from, and I also get that all psykers are rare.

I suppose the issue comes down to the performance of the custodes in combat. In Prespero Burns, do the custodes under Valdor defeat a superior force of Thousand Sons? The Lexicanium claims that and it states that they killed the thousand sons three greatest psykers.

 PhillyT wrote:
In Prespero Burns, do the custodes under Valdor defeat a superior force of Thousand Sons?

No. Before they bring out the Sister of Silence the Custodes and Wolves are getting murdered horribly.
One of the Captains goes full Chaos and becomes all but unstoppable, he only lets himself get killed when he realises he's become a monster.

Pop over and edit the Lexicanium then, because they have it pretty wrong apparently.

 PhillyT wrote:
Pop over and edit the Lexicanium then, because they have it pretty wrong apparently.

I don't use Lexicanum.

Well if that is an accurate take on what transpired, whoever wrote the Valdor biography read a different book than you and you would be a valuable resource.

 PhillyT wrote:
Standard Grey Knights aren't powerful psychers. And yes, Grey Knights have force weapons, but all Custodes have power halberds.

They are strong psykers. Among the strongest in the galaxy? Not necessarily. But certainly above the majority. All sanctioned psykers are, and Grey Knights are about that powerful if not better.

Nemesis Force Weapons are better than Power Halberds though. Since they obliterate your soul with a single wound.

As far as Luthor, Luthor had less chaos power flowing through him than Abaddon does

There is no reason to assume this.

and wouldn't have been as powerful as an uncharged Abaddon before either was chaos pumped.

Arguably true, but irrelevant.

So much power was invested in Luther and his rebellion that when he lost, the enraged power of the Dark Gods destroyed the entire planet.

Reading the fluff, it didn't seem as though Luthor had more power infused than Horus. It seems unlikely, but I guess it never denied it.

 PhillyT wrote:
Well if that is an accurate take on what transpired, whoever wrote the Valdor biography read a different book than you and you would be a valuable resource.

I do not have the patience to write articles. I would simply recommend reading the sources yourself rather than just going by the article.

Also, I doubt that Grey Knights are individually more powerful than sanctioned psykers. I assumed they were basically sanctioned psykers with the added bonus of being turned into a space marine.

TW VS Primarch - This isn't even a fight. It's a squishing. Like "I'm pinching your head" type effort. Note how easily Primarchs like Johnson and Angron are written to basically just karate chop an astartes head off and people don't even notice the swipe?

However; in comparison to astartes, TW are shown in outcast dead to be stronger and faster. They appear to have a single deficiency in comparison : lifespan. It appears they lived pretty much normal human lifespans, and in fact lived less long than those regular humans getting rejuvenat treatments. It's either directly said or alluded to in the extreme in that awful book that they are degenerating and they are literally falling apart.

Astartes are old reliable. TW are 30 years(add ten or twenty) of fury and they start falling apart.

Short lived super warriors just aren't good for space based warfare across a whole friggin galaxy. The potential lifespan of an astartes is one of his greatest assets.

Animus wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Well if that is an accurate take on what transpired, whoever wrote the Valdor biography read a different book than you and you would be a valuable resource.

I do not have the patience to write articles. I would simply recommend reading the sources yourself rather than just going by the article.

Given that the majority of BL novels are utter garbage, that isn't an effective use of my time. It also seems somewhat unlikely that it is as cut and dry as your appraisal, given the reviewable nature of Lexicanium articles, though who knows how many people actually take the time to edit them.

 PhillyT wrote:
Also, I doubt that Grey Knights are individually more powerful than sanctioned psykers. I assumed they were basically sanctioned psykers with the added bonus of being turned into a space marine.

Sanctioned Psykers as seen on the battlefield are themselves quite powerful. Out of about a million of those, one is worthy of being a Grey Knight.

Which is really a question of surviving the process more so than the actual power of the psyker.

Lexicanum wrote:Considering the role of the Grey Knights, potential recruits are put through even more stringent trials than other Space Marine Neophytes. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, the Grey Knight recruits are often drawn directly from the Black Ships after they return to Terra they are then brought to Titan for testing.[7] The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery available is utilised to condition the Neophytes, and each recruit must pass the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, to prove that he is capable of withstanding horrors that would break even the greatest of 'normal' Space Marines. Upon success, the recruit also has the majority of their memories and personality erased[16a], to better ensure their absolute and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. One of the main criteria for selection is that the recruit must show great psychic potential, as the entire Chapter is made up of psykers. Once accepted into the chapter and undergoing the standard process to transform into a member of the Adeptus Astartes, the new Grey Knight is also implanted with silver purity wards under his skin which cover his entire body.

 PhillyT wrote:
Which is really a question of surviving the process more so than the actual power of the psyker.

Survival of the fittest, and they only take the strongest recruits from the black ships in the first place, so only the truly strong survive. Each Grey Knight is an accomplished Sorcerer, all of them need sufficient enough power to create the aegis.
Grey Knights have extraordinary minds: "No ordinary human psyker could hope to do this, for even the attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond salvation. Yet a Grey Knight can not only endure such trials, but thrive amongst them. His strength lies not in martial might alone, bu also his mind."

Even looking at that inflation, Grey Knights focus on defense and incorruptability. They aren't psychic spell slingers.

More powerful members do become the most potent psykers the imperium puts on the battlefield, but on the average they are defensive warriors.

Concerning custodes, the issue is as most: there is a lack of consistence in the authors. There are accounts that have them a head taller than a Marine and the always repeated "they are to marines as marine are o humans" that get knocked around.

 PhillyT wrote:
Even looking at that inflation, Grey Knights focus on defense and incorruptability. They aren't psychic spell slingers.

More powerful members do become the most potent psykers the imperium puts on the battlefield, but on the average they are defensive warriors.

Concerning custodes, the issue is as most: there is a lack of consistence in the authors. There are accounts that have them a head taller than a Marine and the always repeated "they are to marines as marine are o humans" that get knocked around.

In the Emperor's Gift the Grey Knights are shown throwing around telekinesis. Purifiers, who can be recruited from anywhere in the Chapters, can conjure psychic fire. Then there's the good old trusty hammerhand.
I've never seen "they are to marines as marine are o humans" in regards to Custodes outside of fanfiction.

We aren't talking about purifiers. We are referring to standard grey knights.

That's like cherry picking companions, who would lay waste to space marines in droves.

 PhillyT wrote:
We aren't talking about purifiers. We are referring to standard grey knights.

That's like cherry picking companions, who would lay waste to space marines in droves.

But you don't have to be a Purifier to throw about psyflame.
Purifiers aren't even recruited for their strength.
Grey Knights can do offensive psychic powers, be it telepathy, telekinesis or witchfire.