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It's generally well known that the defender has an immediate advantage in these kind of circumstances, and that for an attacker to have any real chance of success they will need three, four, maybe even five times the military force of the defender. So even if we go with the largest, older margins of potential Templar numbers of around 6000+ Marines with their full fleet and serfs on top of that, they'd still lack the numbers to go up against the SW Chapter plus their fleet and serfs and all their assets in the Fenris system. On top of this, it's the SW's home turf, which compounds the defender-attacker handicap against the Templars. Additionally, this type of warfare isn't the Templar's forte. They'd have the upper hand in the fleet battle, but foot-slogging a slow and cumbersome seige battle? They'd need their fellow Dornites Imperial Fists' help, I think. Fast, brutal, close-combat assaults and storming breaches are what they're good at, and unfortunately this plays right into the SW's hands, so they're not only fighting on SW ground, but also on SW terms, too. The Templars are going to go for the up front and center charge approach, whereas a more seige-orientated and/or covert/unconventional warfare adversary would be able to better control the terms of the battle and try and use the SW's, for lack of a better word, unrefined nature and instincts against them. The Templars aren't the ones to do that, they're going to try and out-melee them, which, combined with the elements I oulined above, would result in their defeat, I think.

I say this as a die-hard Templar fan and someone who has never really been taken with or interested in SW. I'm interested in the bottom-line arguments from both you and your brother that caused the stale-mate? Also about the outrageous claims he was making?

pm713 wrote:

As I remember the fight was cut short when Bjorn yelled at everyone. So it's not the best measure.

If I recall correctly the Lord Inquisitor Kysnaros was still killed by Grimnar (who is apparently highly resistant to Psychic powers).

Crappy fluff but the Space Wolves did give the Grey Knights and Red Hunters a hammering. And openly kill an Inquisitor. And get away with it.

The Space Wolves also killed a ton of Grey Knights, and a Grey Knight Grand Master if I recall correctly...

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Space Wolves also killed a ton of Grey Knights, and a Grey Knight Grand Master if I recall correctly...

Yup. Partially because Grimnar can shrug off Psychic attacks of the sort that broke Angron's blade.

In fairness the Grand Master was killed by a surprise attack. But then the Grand Master for some reason didn't draw his swords when Grimnar drew his axe so there we have it. Dumb stuff happens in that book. For instance it could all have been avoided if the Inquisitor had simply ordered transports to stay where they were or convene at location X.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Crappy fluff but the Space Wolves did give the Grey Knights and Red Hunters a hammering. And openly kill an Inquisitor. And get away with it.

Well, it does have to do with half the Inquisitors in the area alredy looking for some way to get rid of the one that thought it was a good idea to shout loudly and pull rank on the Space Wolves. No one was willing to actually declare a First Founding Chapter heretics or traitors over "a minor misunderstanding". And the GKGM offered a truce for negotiations, then openly broke it trying to take out Grimnar's ship - taking payment in blood for such an insult was shuffled away as "honor-related friendly fatalities".

Though IIRC the Inquisitors present did agree on the need to teach the SW a lesson at some later time...

In which book is that story?

Spetulhu wrote:

Well, it does have to do with half the Inquisitors in the area alredy looking for some way to get rid of the one that thought it was a good idea to shout loudly and pull rank on the Space Wolves. No one was willing to actually declare a First Founding Chapter heretics or traitors over "a minor misunderstanding". And the GKGM offered a truce for negotiations, then openly broke it trying to take out Grimnar's ship - taking payment in blood for such an insult was shuffled away as "honor-related friendly fatalities".

Though IIRC the Inquisitors present did agree on the need to teach the SW a lesson at some later time...

If the Inquisitors felt that way they would have dealt with Kysnaros themselves. Not let the Inquisitor get beaten in open warfare. The power of Inquisition comes from it's reputation. From people jumping when it says jump. Letting the Space Wolves kill one who wasn't a traitor in open warfare undermines that. The Grand Master wasn't to blame if I recall correctly; he was just following the Inquisitor's orders. It was a seize Grimnar and we win war situation.

The Space Wolves started the whole thing by openly defying the Inquisition and intervening with their mandate.

Ragnar69 wrote:In which book is that story?

The Emperor's Gift by Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

This event with Grimnar happened shortly after the events that conspired on Armageddon when the grey knights and inquisitorial forces decided to sterlize, kill, and imprison the surviving population.

The spacewolves ordered there fleet to create a blockcade so the pdf/IG/local population had a chance to escape and survive.
-a few ships got away
-the inquistion/greyklnights opened fire on the space wolves fleet, space wolves returned fire shortly there after

then followed a few months of small skirmishes witht he wolves assisting in rescuing the population

the grey knight chapter leader and the inquisiton lured grimnar and 2 ships to a neutral system to parlay a truce.

as soon as the wolves, Grimnar's ship and 2 support ships, materialized in the system the inquistion open fire, destroyed the support ships and crippled Grimnars flag ship.

They then messaged grimnar, saying surrender
-Grimnar said okay, but we have to teleport abord, our bays are damaged.
-grimnar teleported aboard the Greyknight/inquistion command ship.
- grimnar demanded to know who broke sacred rites (going to a netural system to parlay, and assaulting as soon as they enter)
-the grey knight leader said it was he.
-grimnar in a blink of an eye cut off the head of hte grey knight leader
-grimnars terminator wolf guard killed all of the grey knights int he command room, and other forces
-the astropaths attempted to block his teleport, they killed the astropaths,
-the inquisitor attempted to psychicly attack grimnar to no effect

-grimnar and his men teleported abord his flagship and left he system.

then the inquisitor gathered forces and attacked fenris

-things happen

Grimnar and his men board the inquistors flagship, grimnar kills the inquistior and proceeds to go ona rampage ont he command deck

- Bjorn teleports to the bridge
-screams at everyone, basically chill the F out.


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side note, wolves in the lore have always had some sort of small preternatural ability to shrug off psychic based attacks.


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I thing black templar would and could certainly besiege the fang, however thats just about it.

Both templars, and wolves and massive fleets for a single chapter

both are over strengthed

black templars hate warp users and mutants

space wolves use "not-warp" and mutants

I see it this way, black templars besiege the fang for a few months, and then it becomes kraken season, and templars leave the planet after taking heavy casualties from the kraken, kraken brood swarms, and the guerilla style attacks from the space wolves, and fenrisisans.

both hate each other for a bit

If I remember right the internal politics wouldn't really allow it. If the highest ranking inquisitor says jump, and the lower inquisitors he brought along don't do it, you'd still have issues and the GK would be well aware. They'd have needed higher powers to intervene.

Triszin wrote:
side note, wolves in the lore have always had some sort of small preternatural ability to shrug off psychic based attacks.

One of the Blood Gods greatest servants got his sword broken by someone who couldn't do the same with a Space Wolf? Khorne tends to protect his own from Psychic attacks.

troa wrote:If I remember right the internal politics wouldn't really allow it. If the highest ranking inquisitor says jump, and the lower inquisitors he brought along don't do it, you'd still have issues and the GK would be well aware. They'd have needed higher powers to intervene.

If I recall correctly all Inquisitors, even Lord Inquisitors, are of equal rank. It's influence that dictates their power. Kysnaros could have been summoned by other Inquisitors to explain his actions.

In fairness the Knight did nearly kill himself breaking Angrons blade and was far less desperate against Logan. Plus he did stop Logan's axe it wasn't like it did nothing.

pm713 wrote:
In fairness the Knight did nearly kill himself breaking Angrons blade and was far less desperate against Logan. Plus he did stop Logan's axe it wasn't like it did nothing.

Less desperate against Logan maybe but his Brothers had just been killed and the final one was also about to be. "No. No. I’d lost Galeo. I’d lost Dumenidon. I’d lost Sothis, directly because of my own weakness. Enceladus was lost within a coma, likely never to wake again. I wouldn’t lose Mal. He was the last; my only brother; my one chance not to fail the oaths I’d sworn in the name of unbreakable fraternity." doesn't sound like he was holding back much.

He was in power armour at the time vs Grimnar in Terminator armour I think which mitigates it but still Grimnar was harder to stop than Angron. Grimnar was super-duper special in the book.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In fairness the Knight did nearly kill himself breaking Angrons blade and was far less desperate against Logan. Plus he did stop Logan's axe it wasn't like it did nothing.

Less desperate against Logan maybe but his Brothers had just been killed and the final one was also about to be. "No. No. I’d lost Galeo. I’d lost Dumenidon. I’d lost Sothis, directly because of my own weakness. Enceladus was lost within a coma, likely never to wake again. I wouldn’t lose Mal. He was the last; my only brother; my one chance not to fail the oaths I’d sworn in the name of unbreakable fraternity." doesn't sound like he was holding back much.

He was in power armour at the time vs Grimnar in Terminator armour I think which mitigates it but still Grimnar was harder to stop than Angron. Grimnar was super-duper special in the book.

The first time he was losing over a hundred brothers and was watching how it was beyond easy for Angron. I don't see how the armour is really relevant. He didn't actually fight Grimnar.

pm713 wrote:

The first time he was losing over a hundred brothers and was watching how it was beyond easy for Angron. I don't see how the armour is really relevant. He didn't actually fight Grimnar.

Eh, still a desperate fight.

At the point when Hyperion tries to move Grimnar they were striving against each other stave against axe.