Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Unit1126PLL**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would people bring to support a superheavy tank company? I have 3 Stormhammers and I like to run them at 2k (they're 1506 total) but don't really know what the rest of the 500 should be. I am thinking Trojan, Salamander, Atlas, and other stuff, but not sure really if it should be a Battalion with troops, or if I should bring like 1 more Techpriest and perhaps just run a Vanguard, or what.

A Battalion would be neat, for CP, and the cool troops stuff, but eh, not necessary and not exactly fluffy for a superheavy tank regiment.

I would probably take a bunch of un-squaded Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels.

Oh? Can I ask why?

**Unit1126PLL**

I'm not too worried about deep-strike. The sooner they are in close-combat with me, the more immune to most of their anti-tank weapons I am. Stormhammers hit pretty hard in melee and their weapons can still engage threatening targets.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
I would consider a salamander command tank.

Usually its +1 to hit buff is not too impressive because you can only apply it to a single vehicle (despite being a 6" bubble, it can only buff a single unit in that bubble, which with the new squadron mechnanic means a single model for vehicles). +1 to hit is great don't get me wrong, but just one vehicle can only do so much with it.

When that one vehicle is something like a stormlord or a shadowsword though, well that changes things.

There's also the trojan, if you want re-rolls instead of +1. Or you can bring both. They're each about 100 points with weapons, the salamander gets a heavy bolter and heavy flamer, trojan just gets a heavy bolter. Both have pintle slots of course.

I wouldn't bring enough for the whole company, likely too expensive, but with just one you can hide it behind its fatter friends and just drive it over to whichever baneblade you really want to get hits from.

Yes, I think I mentioned these in my original post. I have one Salamander command tank and one Trojan support vehicle, and would like to bring both. The question is, what should I do to bring them? Tech-priests to ride the Trojan, and an Atlas, for repairs in a Vanguard detachment? Troops to capture objectives and whatnot in a Battalion?

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
A techpriest might be useful, especially if it can drag a damaged unit back above the degredation threshold for one more turn.

A big blob of conscripts would probably make a good distraction/objective taker, they'd give enemy anti-infantry weapons something unproductive to do other than fish for 6s on your tanks.

Their lasguns would also help counter enemy hordes, while their inability to take anything else wouldn't matter because the SHVs have everything else covered. The two polar extremes of the guard codex compliment each other pretty well.

Though it does depend on how much you can allocate for support. 100 conscripts with their officer and commissar will run a minimum of 361 points, so they're basically a baneblade made of infantry.

My Stormhammers, the way they're kitted, come out to 502 points each, so I've got 494 points left.

My issue with conscripts is 2-fold: I've found their slow speed to be of little utility; when they're not blocking the movement of my vehicles they're straining their little legs to keep up, not to mention put effective fire downrange.

**Unit1126PLL**

CakesPicasso wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

My issue with conscripts is 2-fold: I've found their slow speed to be of little utility; when they're not blocking the movement of my vehicles they're straining their little legs to keep up, not to mention put effective fire downrange.

Keep in mind that with orders Conscripts can move 12+2d6" per turn. Their speed will only be an issue if you need them to fire as well. And even then you can move+advance and still fire at their normal rate.

Ah, true, though I would have to run a Vanguard, and also figure out how to build conscript models in a week, lol. I have been thinking of bringing drop scions, to fill out a battalion and drop on objectives (since troops will have objective secured).

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
Since you're not worried about melee and are wanting to move your vehicles up, you can deploy them in blocks instead of a screening line. 100 is not very many (by conscript standards) so it shouldn't clog the board too much, though you can run squads of 30-40 to save points and board space. They'll probably be in a patrol detachment with your salamander.

Use Forward for the Emperor to put some pep in their step if they aren't going to have a target after a normal move. If they don't have any targets they can reach in 9" of movement, use Move Move Move to reposition them or plop them on an objective. They weren't going to shoot anything that turn anyway. Just make sure to stretch the back of the formation if you roll high, to help the officers catch up. Obviously once they have a target they should switch to FRFSRF.

They're not going to single-handedly swing a 2k point game obviously, but they'll be a great distraction especially with the overblown reputation they've garnered recently. They're mostly there to make your opponent panic.

I can try, though I'd like to squeeze in both a Salamander and a Trojan, and the Salamander is an Elites choice, not an HQ.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, true, if you want 2-3 elite picks a patrol won't cut it. So it would either be a vanguard with only one conscript squad (in the one troops slot), or three to four 20-30 man squads to unlock a battallion (which will require two officers anyway due to batallion minimums).

Or they can be separate detachments, but then you'll still have some random officer supervising the support tanks' vanguard detachment. So I think it would be better to use those two officers to get a batallion, and put them both to work commanding some infantry in addition to unlocking those tank slots.

My thoughts as well. One of the HQs will be a primaris psyker to give my Warlord tank the 2+ save. Infantry squads can work but I am worried about their speed approaching the objectives.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
I suppose if you wanted to focus mainly on the tanks you could just run a vanguard with the primaris, support tanks, and techpriest.

I just figure it's nice to have a good number of lasguns around to help sweep up things that heavy bolters would overkill. Though that's partly because I play infantry-heavy in general, so I'm used to having a lot of lasguns to throw at problems.

Heavy bolters really aren't 'overkill' per say, it just depends on your targeting. The problem with Stormhammers is I only take 4 heavy bolters anyways, while if I brought my Stormswords, one has 3 twin heavy bolters by itself. However, the twin battlecannon the stormhammer gets I think makes up the firepower difference, and is better at engaging a variety of threat profiles.

That said, the Stormhammer's main gun already has re-rolls, so the Trojan is only useful for the lascannons (x4), twin battle cannon, and 4 heavy bolters.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, I'm guessing from that description that you only put HBs on one sponson (because you get two on the hull and two per sponson), and the rest are heavy flamers.

In which case yeah, for that particular configuration the trojan's value is dubious without the main gun. There's an argument for the four lascannons and twin battlecannon, but it won't be getting as much mileage as the salamander.

Bit of a toss-up whether you want to take it just to buff the secondaries, or if you'd rather use its points on conscripts/more conscripts. Or a second salamander so you can +1 both superheavies at the same time.

Well, the configuration I have is the two front sponson weapons are lascannons, then each other side sponson gun is a heavy bolter.

Since there are three gunports on each side (for 6 weapons) this gives you 4 heavy bolters. The hull weapon on a Stormhammer is a lascannon, and the co-axial for the main gun is a lascannon as well (I upgrade it). So each of my stormhammers has 4 lascannons, 4 heavy bolters, the twin battlecannon, and the main gun. The main gun re-rolls to hit if the co-axial lascannon fires.

I could mix companies of course but that just sounds unfluffy!

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
I might have to re-read the rules, but I'm pretty sure each sponson gets a lascannon AND a twin heavy bolter, not "or".

As in, if you take a baneblade sponson, it ALWAYS has a lascannon. The choice you get to make is, in addition to the lascannon, do you take twin heavy bolters or twin heavy flamers?

The stormhammer is a different tank than most other baneblade variants:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Solar-Auxilia-Stormhammer

In the picture the tank has multilasers in the sponsons and co-ax, but every multilaser may be replaced with a heavy bolter, heavy flamer, or lascannon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
CakesPicasso wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

My issue with conscripts is 2-fold: I've found their slow speed to be of little utility; when they're not blocking the movement of my vehicles they're straining their little legs to keep up, not to mention put effective fire downrange.

Keep in mind that with orders Conscripts can move 12+2d6" per turn. Their speed will only be an issue if you need them to fire as well. And even then you can move+advance and still fire at their normal rate.

Ah, true, though I would have to run a Vanguard, and also figure out how to build conscript models in a week, lol. I have been thinking of bringing drop scions, to fill out a battalion and drop on objectives (since troops will have objective secured).

I personally think scions will have the most synergy with your superheavies over any other troops. A barebones battalion of them is minimum 230 points, which gives you a lot of points for special weapons/additional bodies. Or the economy route, which is two barebones battalions for 460 pts. Depends on whether 3additional CPs or the BS 3+ special weapons are worth more to you.

Either way, it allows you to drop em in to steal objectives, throw a tactical wrench in their plans or harass dug-in enemy units.

This co-incides more with what I was thinking, though with the Trojan and the Salamander we're pushing the limit as far as points go... the three tanks are 1506 points.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, you may not really be able to afford anything else then. Between the tanks and the psyker you'll only have about 200 points left. So you can get about 20 scions with no officer, 10 scions with an officer, or around 50 conscripts with an officer and a commissar.

Also, yep, that sure is one special snowflake of a tank

Yes, that's the thing. I would like to run a battalion, so I was thinking ~240 pts for the primaris and support armour, and then either: techpriests or scions (they're about the same price; IIRC the tech-priest is actually more) for the last 250 or so. That's really the dilemma: Do I throw more money behind supporting the heavy tanks, or do I go for something actually useful to playing the mission?

**Unit1126PLL**

The reason I can't do +1 to all 3 vehicles is the Matched Play rules, which allow you to cast only one of any given psychic power except smite. Otherwise, definitely.

As for the techpriests vs scions....

yeah that's a very hard choice. I have an Atlas I could bring, which stacks with the tech-priests repairs (unlike the priests themselves) but I'm just not sure anymore...

Barebones scions vs techpriests is never a concern I'd think I'd've had.

**Unit1126PLL**

I guess I can paint the Salamander and Trojan while I'm trying to figure this out...

**Unit1126PLL**

CplPunishment wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
The reason I can't do +1 to all 3 vehicles is the Matched Play rules, which allow you to cast only one of any given psychic power except smite. Otherwise, definitely.

As for the techpriests vs scions....

yeah that's a very hard choice. I have an Atlas I could bring, which stacks with the tech-priests repairs (unlike the priests themselves) but I'm just not sure anymore...

Barebones scions vs techpriests is never a concern I'd think I'd've had.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you need 2 more command points from the Battalion, or the ability to repair.

A Battleforged Vanguard and Superheavy detachment nets 7CP. Not horrible, plus it gives you 6 Elites slots.

That being said, you CAN compromise: 2 Tempestor Primes, 3 barebones scions, an astropath with laspistol and a techpriest are priced at 297pts. That's a brigade with a little bit of everything. That will at least get you a +1 save, Astral Divination and +d3 wounds on your warlord tank, if nothing else.

I think a Primaris Psyker is the same or cheaper than one of the tempestor primes, saving me 15 points on the astropath for wargear. But otherwise that sounds like a plan.

**Unit1126PLL**

K so I tweaked the list today.

Totally dropped an enginseer, but that gave me the points to buy 5 of my possible 6 plasma guns and then put heavy flamers on one of my Stormhammers (instead of the 4 heavy bolters) in case I run into a bunch of assassins or something.

**Unit1126PLL**

CplPunishment wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
K so I tweaked the list today.

Totally dropped an enginseer, but that gave me the points to buy 5 of my possible 6 plasma guns and then put heavy flamers on one of my Stormhammers (instead of the 4 heavy bolters) in case I run into a bunch of assassins or something.

Give us an update on how they work out after playtesting!

I will do after this weekend!

**Unit1126PLL**

Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

**Unit1126PLL**

Lothar wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

Yeah, of course there are some players, who use models, because they like them. However, they are quite rare. Almost in every case I have heart about FW model, was because of strong rules it has (better than gw). Lemans from FW are much better than GW. Elysians are more effective than scions (and we know how good scions are), vulture or avenger or vendetta are better than valkyrie. Searchlights are very good, commander vehicles also (those two are the only units which give + BS), Cyclops are OP, artillery platforms are also better than GW artillery, tauros venators are great, tarantula turrets also. And that is only imperial guard. You can find a lot of units for other factions (space marines, chaos), that are insanely good for its cost.

I could go into detail about why that isn't the case for those models, but it seems your mind is set upon it and so be it. I don't want to argue.

**Unit1126PLL**

argonak wrote:
daedalus wrote:
argonak wrote:

Its different because of perception. Forge world isn't sold in a GW, so it isn't going to be commonly seen. Perhaps its leftover attitude from past editions, but I have a hard time expecting people to see someone lay down forgeworld specific units and not raise an eyebrow or be like "dude we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."

Were that this only the case around here. Roughly 70% of the standard model line, as far as I can tell, isn't sold in most FLGS (at least around here), supposedly because GW won't let them sell it. Supposedly the Basilisk mine was selling last time I picked one up was something they were selling at cost that they'd bought direct just so that they could offer something that they used to have if anyone came in looking for it.

I obviously have zero way of being able to prove that, but I've only seen a basilisk in one of about four stores around and it was in the whitebox, not a standard retail, so I dunno. Might be some truth to it. I'm not hip enough on the latest wheelings and dealings to know for sure.

So, if that's the case, what's this degree of perception for anyone who's options are, as sold in the stores: "the entire line of space marines models" or "a troop choice and maybe 20% of the rest of the army"? I mean, sure, ordering direct is always an option, but if it is for GW, then it is for FW. There's not even the excuse of payment issues anymore. I paid for my last FW order paypal, of all the things! Man, where was that 10 years ago.

Or, more simply, to add to your narrative:

"Dude, we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."
"It's... a hellhound. From my codex."
"Woah, oooookaaaay, Mr. 'I use my ENTIRE codex'."

Basilisks are sold on the GW web page, and you can have it delivered for free to a GW store. And its in the GW codex you buy for your army. That is apple and oranges to Forgeworld, which looks like a completely separate company at first glance to a newb. And then you have to buy a completely separate rulebook to run forgeworld. I know not everyone plays in a GW, but a lot of folks do.

Honestly I don't own any forgeworld, so I don't know what its like in the real world with the stuff. I just wonder if people would accept me showing up with weird units that no one else probably has seen.

Like the thunderbolt for example. I show up with a thunderbolt (which costs a freaking fortune by the way), are people going to just go "oh ok. sure play that." Or will they be "where the hell is that in the index?"

Everyone I have ever talked to or played against would be completely fine with it if you show them the Imperial Armour rules, except like 2 people on Dakka here.

**Unit1126PLL**

Lol! So my playing history:

I started using Forge World in 3rd Edition with a Baneblade.

I have had 1 person refuse to play against me since then because of FW. In 5th-6th edition, I used the FW Armoured Battlegroup list, in 7th I played mostly the Heresy (written by Forge World) and in 8th 1700 points of my 2000 point army are Forge World units.

This means that ever since I've started playing I've used Forge World Units. I've had one game turned down, avoided most GT's back in the day when they were banned (which has all changed now)... and that's it. The awful awful repercussions of investing in forge world ladies and gentlemen. Playing in four cities in two countries, and I've had a single game turned down.

I got more hate for running superheavies in 6th after Escalation came out (and a bit in 8th) than I have for any Forge World unit ever. It's weird how superheavies were more okay in 3rd, 4th, and 5th than they were after escalation came out lol.

**Unit1126PLL**

Except that it's 8 points more expensive for the stygies vanquisher????

(165 vs 157)

That means that without the 2 pts storm bolter, it's paying 6 pts for +1 BS and only if it doesn't move.

**Unit1126PLL**

Lothar wrote:
Why is FW banned in our group? The rules. For no reason, there are units in FW which are better than their index versions, often for no cost at all or only for laughable point cost.

Name one.

Lothar wrote:
Also, they are flaws in the rules, big flaws, which are not FAQed.

Also true of GW.

Lothar wrote:

Also the unit rules are horribly imbalanced. Either they are bad or OP.

[Citation Needed]

**Unit1126PLL**

I don't really fit into the normal AM meta with my superheavy tank company, but:

Do you guys think Enginseers will preserve the AM keyword and therefore a Supreme Command detachment of Enginseers is a possibility? Or at least Enginseer HQs?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind. Just checked a codex review. The Enginseer Lost the AM keyword.

Looks like they won't be joining my army sadly.

**Unit1126PLL**

necron99 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't really fit into the normal AM meta with my superheavy tank company, but:

Do you guys think Enginseers will preserve the AM keyword and therefore a Supreme Command detachment of Enginseers is a possibility? Or at least Enginseer HQs?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind. Just checked a codex review. The Enginseer Lost the AM keyword.

Looks like they won't be joining my army sadly.

These keywords are going to drive me batty. Isn't having the Imperium keyword good enough or is AM a requirement? I've added a tech-priest enginseer to my supreme command detachment just so I can have him baby sitting the parking lot changing tires, etc.

The issue is that I am trying to run a Imperial Superheavy Tank Regiment. Everything has to keep up with the tanks, both on the table-top in a literal sense and in the fluffy sense. The fact that Techpriest Enginseers can no longer ride in either the Stormlord regimental command vehicle, 7th Heavy Transport Company's Banehammers, or the Support Company's Trojans is derpy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The upshot is I suppose I can model my "head enginseer" riding in the Salamander. Still can't repair things (just a modeling choice to put on the open deck), but at least would be fluffy.

**Unit1126PLL**

daedalus wrote:Just use the index version.

necron99 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Just use the index version.

I was wondering about that. Doesn't the existence of the codex override the index, though? Or do you get to decide which rules you use?

I thought the entry in the Codex overrode the entry in the Index?

**Unit1126PLL**

Chris521 wrote:
The enginseer is still the same for guard. GW just gave admech an HQ version to make up for their lack of HQs. Ours is still an elite choice.

Is that... can it be proven?

**Unit1126PLL**

jifel wrote:
He is an HQ now. You always use the most recent copy of a data slate.

It isn't that he is an HQ. It is that he isn't Astra Militarum

**Unit1126PLL**

Yeah. The 2nd Concordian Independent Superheavy Tank Regiment will find a excellent excellent way to move forwards. It should be a blast.

**Unit1126PLL**

ChargerIIC wrote:
jifel wrote:
As exciting as the new codex is, I have a GT coming up that won't be using it, and so had a question for the group. In a competitive setting, what non-AM units have you founf best supplement the Astra Militarum? right now Im taking Celestine, a Culexis and an Inquisitor as my only non-AM models. The inquisitor I just see as a 15 point upgrade to one of my Primaris Psykers that nets me a new set of psychic powers, as I figured the first 3 had Telethesia covered. Mental Fortitude seems useful in the event that my opponent manages to snipe out a Commissar, while Terrify is also quite useful for shutting down a units overwtach if I need to charge it to tie it up. Anyone else using an Inquisitor in their guard lists? I dont see them much, but I like to have power options besides Smite, even if smite is what Im gonna be using 90% of the time.

I use an inquisitor as my warlord. AM doesn't have great deny the witch abilities, so the vanilla inquisitor is worth the points.I find Tech-Priest enginseers to be invaluable, even if I had to change my Vanguard Formation to a Supreme Command formation to make them fit. Nothing like bringing a Leman Russ to full health after enemy infantry throws everything they've got at it.

An extra 1-3 wounds is hardly "full health"

If you want to repair something multiple times, use Atlases. They stack.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
Here's an interesting question: since a LRBT benefitting from grinding advance fires the turret weapon two separate times instead of just changing the RoF on the profile, can the two shots be fired at different targets? Can you re-roll both blasts if you're Catachan?

It explicitly says in Grinding Advance that the Russ's cannon must fire at the same target, and also that it is two separate shots.