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Martel732 wrote:
Baal preds are highly incentivized to stay around 24" away. This makes them far less likely to be turned off by assault.

I'm not really understanding what you mean here. A regular predator can stay much farther away...

I'm comparing to an asscan razorback. Regular pred is a different animal that migbt be more efficient admittedly.

 Neferhet wrote:
I think that any army that has access to large masses of average infantry (cheap masses) will have the upper hand; also midstrenght weapons spam, be it melee or ranged seems to give an advantage. This puts Tyranids (they are also FAST) and Imperial Guard (how many plasmaguns can you bring at 2000 pts? how many infantry squads? Answer: too many.) as my personal top dogs.

masses allow for wounds out of sheer statistic, dominate the objective games, dictates movement and deepstrikes, absorb enemy firepower...midstrenght weapons at worst wound on 5+, and en masse can ruin anything.

4 squads of guard with a plasmagun each roghly cost like a decent firebase tank. Guess who is better (at everything)?

This is definitely what I am getting out of it.
The meta may shift but masses of troops with a special/heavy weapons for punching through vehicles/monsters seems the way to go.
Vehicles seem very expensive and are vulnerable to high damage guns in a way basic troops are not

I could imagine this could create a meta of flamers but none of them seem to be as lethal as they used to be.

From a DE perspective I think massed kabalite warriors with some trueborn/scourges for some point blaster fire onto characters and other trouble units is going to be the most efficient way to deal with things.

Orks seem to be in a similar position.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Wait - dreadnoughts can run(advance) and still shoot/pop-smoke and/or charge? ...where did I miss this? I'm not sure that's right.

Yeah the Baal Pred is nice against Orks.

Frag Cannons are a Assault Weapon, You can Advance and still shoot a Assault Weapon at -1
You cannot charge though



But One thing for people to remember is that these Indexes are gap fillers until the armies get their own Codex.

We have all seen pic of the upcoming models for Death Guard and Primus Marines, So I would expect their Codex's to be released shortly (Death Guard really got the short end of the stick in the Index)

Tyel wrote:
I could imagine this could create a meta of flamers but none of them seem to be as lethal as they used to be.

Some of the Guard flamer choices are pretty nice, and although the heavy flamer is expensive I do think you get what you pay for. For most vehicles a heavy flamer avoids the annoying -1 to hit with heavies rule. That makes it a very appealing weapon for a mobile vehicle. Also, vehicles can now overwatch, which further improves flamers. I m seriously considering running a couple of dual flamer chimeras, a couple of flamer hellhounds, some flamer scout sentinels and possibly even something crazy, like a 3xflamer demolisher. Hell, you could even slap 8 flamers on a hellhammer if you want a unit that noone will ever want to charge. That is an average of 28 flamer hits on overwatch, not to mention all of the other guns.

My opinion is definitely changing from "17 points for a heavy flamer is insane" to "wow, flamers are lethal".

Ah great for frag dreads, not so great for CC dreads.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Ah great for frag dreads, not so great for CC dreads.

That is true, but if you take a Stormraven you can drop them off right in front of the enemy and make a T2 charge with ease

GodDamUser wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Ah great for frag dreads, not so great for CC dreads.

That is true, but if you take a Stormraven you can drop them off right in front of the enemy and make a T2 charge with ease

Agreed, and the Stormraven does look nice. But as a long time BA player, and as someone who also just recently bought Angel's Blade [dreadnought formations] like most current BA players, I have a crap-ton of dreads to put on the table haha, mostly all the CC variety.

Anyway, yeah things change, I can deal, but I certainly won't agree with anyone that say's the BA dreads are pointed correctly as they ARE less useful than any shooty variety, and can only work in very situational combinations of luck and additional cost [stormraven].

Which is really the point I've been making, the BA stuff overall - it's not terrible - but the points, on really the bulk of the BA specific items[Sang Guard, Angelus Bolters, Infernus Pistol, Hand Flamer, Furioso Dreads etc] just don't seem to make sense.

Gunzhard, vehicles are much more resilient today than 7th. And that applys to Dreadnoughts too. 2-3 dreadnoughts isn't something that many armies can kill in the first 1-2 turns of shooting. Only if they focus all of their fire. And if they focus all of their fire in those 3 dreads it means they aren't shooting the rest of your army.

I don't saying this to justify their cost because to be honest I don't what it is. Only saying that the "Drop pod or death" of 7th for meele units isn't in 8th.

Infernus pistols are unspeakably nasty, which is why they cost 20 pts.

 Runic wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially.

IG is all but toned down. I don't think it's even possible to be more toned down than what they were in 7th.

For one, they can shut down almost all melee by utilizing one specific unit in high volume. Tempestus squads with plasmaguns and Tempestus Primes, and Harker behind a gunline are absolutely powerful.

Those ones are free.

Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.

IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.

And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.

That sounds like a nerf to me.

A set of much needed nerfs.

But a nerf nonetheless.

 Galas wrote:
Gunzhard, vehicles are much more resilient today than 7th. And that applys to Dreadnoughts too. 2-3 dreadnoughts isn't something that many armies can kill in the first 1-2 turns of shooting. Only if they focus all of their fire. And if they focus all of their fire in those 3 dreads it means they aren't shooting the rest of your army.

I don't saying this to justify their cost because to be honest I don't what it is. Only saying that the "Drop pod or death" of 7th for meele units isn't in 8th.

Not disagreeing there. But again, situational for a possible contribution (other than just drawing fire). If I take 3 long-range dreads they are still drawing fire but actually contributing the entire game without a stormraven or limbo-trek across the table to maybe contribute. They are different animals with different usage - but all of the situational BA dreads are MORE expensive than the other SM dreadnoughts.

The IronClad dreadnought is T8, with a Siesmic Hammer and Dread-CC-arm, it's still cheaper than a Furioso with 2 Fists (forget about the Talons which are even way more expensive).

The shooty dreads can be built even cheaper.

Anyway - I am more than fine to move on from 'drop pod of death' skies raining CC dreads - but the CC dreads shouldn't be the same price, let alone MORE than the shooty dreads which have much more usage.

 Luciferian wrote:
Dark Angels lost their improved overwatch rules along with their re-roll-able Jink save cheesiness. They didn't really get anything in return, so they've been toned down quite a bit. The only thing they really have going for them over vanilla SM is that their terminator squads can mix weapon types, and Black Knights as a special unit. On the other hand, Black Knights are a pretty good all-around unit for their price - for my money they're better than terminators every day. 50 ppm with assault 2 plasma guns, a decent CC weapon, T5 W2 and a 14" move.

I still think the right list could be pretty competitive with DA, but they are definitely just a step above vanilla SM if that.

being able to mix weapon types though is a pretty damn useful trait in 8th.

 Traditio wrote:

 Runic wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially.

IG is all but toned down. I don't think it's even possible to be more toned down than what they were in 7th.

For one, they can shut down almost all melee by utilizing one specific unit in high volume. Tempestus squads with plasmaguns and Tempestus Primes, and Harker behind a gunline are absolutely powerful.

Those ones are free.

Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.

IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.

And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.

That sounds like a nerf to me.

A set of much needed nerfs.

But a nerf nonetheless.

Needed nerfs, we hardly needed much if any?

What's stopping Guard from getting cover? Did they seriously lose access to camo nets, smoke launchers, fortifications and terrain?

Losing the Apoc blast template must have hurt, the others seem to balance out to an average, they don't collect bunched up squads of mini bases anymore but they no longer scatter either.

 Traditio wrote:


Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.

IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.

And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.

That sounds like a nerf to me.

A set of much needed nerfs.

But a nerf nonetheless.

Why did we need a nerf, again?

May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?

So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.

IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.

And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.

That sounds like a nerf to me.

A set of much needed nerfs.

But a nerf nonetheless.

Why did we need a nerf, again?

May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?

So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.

Because GW hates the common man.... and Sisters....

 NenkotaMoon wrote:


Because GW hates the common man.... and Sisters....

Well, yeah.

But I'm asking where the IG touched Traditio. Because I want to know, so I can poke the Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines there before 7e goes and get one final fiery retribution if we deserve a nerf so badly.



For what it's worth, I don't feel underpowered while playing my Sisters as I do when playing my Guardsmen. The Sisters just haven't had any attention in a long while. We're not great, sure, and we've been neglected, but we're not bad. We've got a few good things, and they're good enough to keep us in the fight. Also, we've got Celestine. But playing my guardsmen I feel like I'm dredging the bottom of the barrel for the cheesiest thing I can find in my book to meet parity with a mostly casual Tau list.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.

IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.

And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.

That sounds like a nerf to me.

A set of much needed nerfs.

But a nerf nonetheless.

Why did we need a nerf, again?

May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?

So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.

Because GW hates the common man.... and Sisters....

Well, yeah.

But I'm asking where the IG touched Traditio. Because I want to know, so I can poke the Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines there before 7e goes and get one final fiery retribution if we deserve a nerf so badly.

Poke 'em.... poke 'em so hard. Think I got a meme for this here stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IIRC, it's because LRs have a S8 AP3 large blast on a front AV 14 vehicle, and traditio plays with either TS or ML/flamer 5th edition rhino rush marines (with one or two melta guns if his last SM list is indicative of his current list)

Im watching this thread for heresy...

 Wolfblade wrote:
IIRC, it's because LRs have a S8 AP3 large blast on a front AV 14 vehicle, and traditional plays with either TS or ML/flamer 5th edition rhino rush marines (with one or two melta guns if his last SM list is indicative of his current list)

Hahahaha....

The Leman Russ tank is crap. Seriously. And if you're playing Rhino Rush via. Gladius or otherwise, it can't even kill the Rhinos.

Maybe if he was complaining about Wyverns or Manticores. I had a Tau player complain to me that my Wyvern was OP because it ignored his Tideline one time, and a local Necron player maintains the Manticore is OP.

Also, Nekota, that's adorable. Seen it before, but it's still adorable.

I fell in love with it.

I guess I need to read through the other indicies, because I have no idea what people are on about with this "guard got nerfed" business. I mean, if you haven't played since 5th ed? Yeah, maybe. Compared to 7th though? Well, either I was playing a different game or I really need to see what everyone else got if guard look nerfed by comparison.

 daedalus wrote:
I guess I need to read through the other indicies, because I have no idea what people are on about with this "guard got nerfed" business. I mean, if you haven't played since 5th ed? Yeah, maybe. Compared to 7th though? Well, either I was playing a different game or I really need to see what everyone else got if guard look nerfed by comparison.

It's mainly panic setting in for those that can't see how their army is going to rank in 8th. It's simply too early to know. If you look around there is a thread for every army with someone losing their gak over the new edition. In a couple of months we will have a better idea of where each army stands in the rankings, Once those handful of players that actually create the net lists do their thing.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why did we need a nerf, again?

May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?

So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.

This is such a logical fallacy.

"X isn't as bad as Y. Therefore, X is not bad."

No, 7th IG didn't have the same level of OP stuff as other codices.

However, IG did have access cheap, spammable AV, some of which is virtually immune to most shooting in the game, and much of which puts out a ridiculous number of shots.

IG still has that in 8th. But at least in 8th, marines get better cover against it, you are hitting on 4s (and not relying on rerolling scatter dice for blast templates), and you're likely wounding on 3s, not 2s, Not to mention that that 20 shot gun you have is only ever going to deal wounds to one squad. Not several.

In addition to that, IG had ridiculously cheap infantry and extremely spammable heavy and special weapons.

No, it didn''t matter that you were hitting on 4s. The sheer numbers were on your side.

When you take both of those things together, the result is obvious.

No, IG weren't as OP as wraithknights and scatter bikes.

But how imagine how the standard IG lists would fare against assault marines, devastators, tactical marines and rhinos.

In my view, IG are still OP in 8th.

In fact, they're overall much stronger since so many other things got nerfed.

But compared to assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in rhinos, they got nerfed. Hard.

And they needed to be.

I think that people will come to agree with me when I say now that IG needs further nerfs (manticores need a thorough beating with the nerf bat in particular), and likely will be nerfed harder.

But already, have no doubt about it, they have been nerfed substantially.

Guard got gakked on by tacs and devs in rhinos, idk what you're talking about. 8-10 grav cannons reduced mech guard lists to ash before the guard player got through half the rhinos. In fact, add on assault marines with double flamer combi-flamer in drop pods and you could of built a marine list that was imposssible for any straight guard list to survive with just those units.

It's weird if IG were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments. Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry. It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.

ERJAK wrote:
Guard got gakked on by tacs and devs in rhinos, idk what you're talking about. 8-10 grav cannons reduced mech guard lists to ash before the guard player got through half the rhinos.

This is not a real answer. Grav cannons are commonly recognized to be one of the most OP things of 7th edition.

Tacticals, devastators and assault marines in rhinos generally are not beating IG lists without grav.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why did we need a nerf, again?

May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?

So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.

This is such a logical fallacy.

"X isn't as bad as Y. Therefore, X is not bad."

No, 7th IG didn't have the same level of OP stuff as other codices.

However, IG did have access cheap, spammable AV, some of which is virtually immune to most shooting in the game, and much of which puts out a ridiculous number of shots.

IG still has that in 8th. But at least in 8th, marines get better cover against it, you are hitting on 4s (and not relying on rerolling blast masters), and you're likely wounding on 3s, not 2s, Not to mention that that 20 shot gun you have is only ever going to deal wounds to one squad. Not several.

In addition to that, IG had ridiculously cheap infantry and extremely spammable heavy and special weapons.

No, it didn''t matter that you were hitting on 4s. The sheer numbers were on your side.

When you take both of those things together, the result is obvious.

No, IG weren't as OP as wraithknights and scatter bikes.

But how imagine how the standard IG lists would fare against assault marines, devastators, tactical marines and rhinos.

In my view, IG are still OP in 8th.

In fact, they're overall much stronger since so many other things got nerfed.

But compared to assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in rhinos, they got nerfed. Hard.

And they needed to be.

I think that people will come to agree with me when I say now that IG needs further nerfs (manticores need a thorough beating with the nerf bat in particular), and likely will be nerfed harder.

But already, have no doubt about it, they have been nerfed substantially.

I'm not so sure. Every army copped a beating with the Nerf Hammer at the start of the edition, it's more likely that other armies will be buffed to the level of the front runners rather than the front runners being nerfed back.
Buffs sell models, nerfs don't.