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Stux wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
The FAQ doesn't ACTUALLY talk about this situation. I appreciate the Facebook team wading in but as far as YMDC is concerned that has no more validity than anyone else's opinion.

Admittedly the FAQ isn't specifically trying to answer this question, but doesn't the FAQ in answering another question explicitly say that a transport with 2 units embarked count as 3 units deployed on the field?

Yes.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
The FAQ doesn't ACTUALLY talk about this situation. I appreciate the Facebook team wading in but as far as YMDC is concerned that has no more validity than anyone else's opinion.

Admittedly the FAQ isn't specifically trying to answer this question, but doesn't the FAQ in answering another question explicitly say that a transport with 2 units embarked count as 3 units deployed on the field?

Yes.

where does it say this?? whats the quote??

edit: after much reading, no such faq exist.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

The FAQ wrote:
Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

So a storm raven with 9 captains counts as 10 units on the battlefield. Because the 9 captains are still counting as a deployment choice, and their zone is the battlefield, same as the storm raven.

Which means that you can have 9 strike squads in deep strike reserve.

And, boots on the ground:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

The FAQ wrote:
If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one
player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately and their opponent automatically wins a
crushing victory. When determining if a player has any
units on the battlefield, do not include any units with
the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate
within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot
hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield
Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the
most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to
pose a threat.

A storm raven with a model embarked means you have a model set up on the battlefield - because the flyer is technically on the battlefield, so is the model inside. While the flyer itself doesn't count, you are, RAW, protected from instant death if something is embarked.

no and no.

 Marmatag wrote:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

The FAQ wrote:
Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

So a storm raven with 9 captains counts as 10 units on the battlefield. Because the 9 captains are still counting as a deployment choice, and their zone is the battlefield, same as the storm raven.

Which means that you can have 9 strike squads in deep strike reserve.

The storm raven is set up on the battle field and the dudes in side the transport are not. as per embarking:


letting your quote stand, we now have to know, what is embarking??

"It all models in a unit end thier move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. remove the unit from the battle field and place it to tone side- it is now embarked inside the transport"

Hmmm so are they really not on the battle field???

"when a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all....."

Looks like when embarked you aren't on the battle field.

 Marmatag wrote:

And, boots on the ground:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

The FAQ wrote:
If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one
player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately and their opponent automatically wins a
crushing victory. When determining if a player has any
units on the battlefield, do not include any units with
the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate
within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot
hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield
Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the
most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to
pose a threat.

A storm raven with a model embarked means you have a model set up on the battlefield - because the flyer is technically on the battlefield, so is the model inside. While the flyer itself doesn't count, you are, RAW, protected from instant death if something is embarked.

You'd also auto lose if everything in your army is in a transport, as per the above. As units in transports aren't on the table. The embarked on fortification. I'd say would even more support that models in transports don't count as on the table, as note that it is special and pointed out. As stuff embarked on things aren't on the table, we they needed to clarify that you can be okay if your fortifications ahve stuff inside. But that's stretching things, and i'll just stick with the above that clearly demonstrates that units embarked are literally not on the battle field as per rules

Its locale is still the battlefield. It is still set up. Just because disembarking mentions set it up on the battlefield doesn't mean they weren't already technically on the battlefield. Without that line people could remove units from transports directly into reserves.

And you're arguing rules as intended. While that is obviously what was intended, it is not what the rules actually say. I agree as to the intent in regards to sudden death. But that is very clearly not what it says.

 Marmatag wrote:
Its locale is still the battlefield. It is still set up. Just because disembarking mentions set it up on the battlefield doesn't mean they weren't already technically on the battlefield. Without that line people could remove units from transports directly into reserves.

And you're arguing rules as intended. While that is obviously what was intended, it is not what the rules actually say. I agree as to the intent in regards to sudden death. But that is very clearly not what it says.

The problem isn't just that disembarking says set it up on the battlefield; embarking also says to remove it from the battlefield.

The inference therefore is that "being embarked" includes "being removed from the battlefield." If we're talking about states of being.

 Marmatag wrote:
Its locale is still the battlefield. It is still set up. Just because disembarking mentions set it up on the battlefield doesn't mean they weren't already technically on the battlefield. Without that line people could remove units from transports directly into reserves.

And you're arguing rules as intended. While that is obviously what was intended, it is not what the rules actually say. I agree as to the intent in regards to sudden death. But that is very clearly not what it says.

the only "intent" is the last bit, and i personal in the same paragraph say it's stretching the rules and defer to the actualy rules as they are written whcih are super clear that models embarked not on the battle field, and nothing anywhere else says otherwise.

mmimzie wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Its locale is still the battlefield. It is still set up. Just because disembarking mentions set it up on the battlefield doesn't mean they weren't already technically on the battlefield. Without that line people could remove units from transports directly into reserves.

And you're arguing rules as intended. While that is obviously what was intended, it is not what the rules actually say. I agree as to the intent in regards to sudden death. But that is very clearly not what it says.

the only "intent" is the last bit, and i personal in the same paragraph say it's stretching the rules and defer to the actualy rules as they are written whcih are super clear that models embarked not on the battle field, and nothing anywhere else says otherwise.

Well, being embarked in a fortification making the fortification count as units on the battlefield is an implication that they count as being on the battlefield, otherwise why would the fortication suddenly count as a unit on the battlefield merely by them being in it?

Because it doesn't count, for this purpose, as being on the board if it's empty.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Because it doesn't count, for this purpose, as being on the board if it's empty.

Which ignores the question of why it counts by having a unit embarked in it, since embarked units supposedly don't count as being on the table as per the embarking rules.

 doctortom wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Because it doesn't count, for this purpose, as being on the board if it's empty.

Which ignores the question of why it counts by having a unit embarked in it, since embarked units supposedly don't count as being on the table as per the embarking rules.

This is a rules as intended or make an integration that isn't clear. As they should also make the same clarification for transports with units inside as well as being embarked in the transport would as you say still count you as having units on the battlefield if it worked the way you say.

However they don't do that despite making the specific clarification for units embarked in a fortification. Which is to say fortifications are different from transport. Even then this doesn't state that models embarked in a fortification are even on the battlefield. It's just making exceptions for units in a fortification.

As I said a sketchy argument could be made that since they had to point this out it means that the units embarked aren't on the battlefield. But again this is a sketchy and it's best to stick with the concrete emvark/disembark verbage.

You can't infer anything from omission. Not mentioning something in a fortification clarification doesn't mean vehicles work the opposite or even differently... it just means they weren't mentioned. Don't infer rules from gaps, that's not how rules work.

Can you put units without Infiltrate or Teleportation Strike rules in reserves?
I read somewhere on this forum that you can't, but in some CA missions you have rules for Reserves (you roll d6 for each unit you have in reserves at the end of each of your Movement Phase and on 3+ that unit arrives in your Deployment Zone or somewhere else if it has Infiltrator).

Azhday wrote:
Can you put units without Infiltrate or Teleportation Strike rules in reserves?
I read somewhere on this forum that you can't, but in some CA missions you have rules for Reserves (you roll d6 for each unit you have in reserves at the end of each of your Movement Phase and on 3+ that unit arrives in your Deployment Zone or somewhere else if it has Infiltrator).

It's entirely mission dependent. AFAIK none of the matched play missions allow you to do so, some narrative missions do.

Last Eternal War and last Maelstrom mission in CA both have Reserves Forces rule (units from Reserves come on board on 3+ as I described).
I was wondering if units with Infiltrate can only come on board if you roll 3+ (or can you keep them in Reserves even if you roll 3+) with that Reserve Forces rule?

Azhday wrote:
Last Eternal War and last Maelstrom mission in CA both have Reserves Forces rule (units from Reserves come on board on 3+ as I described).
I was wondering if units with Infiltrate can only come on board if you roll 3+ (or can you keep them in Reserves even if you roll 3+) with that Reserve Forces rule?

If a unit has a rule on its datasheet about non-standard deployment, it can use them regardless of the mission rules and you don't have to roll for them.

 doctortom wrote:
Well, being embarked in a fortification making the fortification count as units on the battlefield is an implication that they count as being on the battlefield, otherwise why would the fortication suddenly count as a unit on the battlefield merely by them being in it?

Just to clarify, the fortification and flyer exception for sudden death merely stipulates units/models with such keyword cannot count towards having units on the battlefield for the purpose of determining sudden death rule. No where does it say a fortification or a flyer is not a model/unit on battlefield.

It's a specific exception.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Its locale is still the battlefield. It is still set up. Just because disembarking mentions set it up on the battlefield doesn't mean they weren't already technically on the battlefield. Without that line people could remove units from transports directly into reserves.

And you're arguing rules as intended. While that is obviously what was intended, it is not what the rules actually say. I agree as to the intent in regards to sudden death. But that is very clearly not what it says.

Actually, what you're claiming is exactly what we all agree as "how it should be played" and "what is probably intended." There's a chain of logic that can be drawn from the currently given set of rule due to lack of specific definitions that puts embarked units in a locale that is specifically & explicitly off battlefield, but not in reserves. Tactical Reserves rule, as written, does not differentiate between those that are "in transport, off battlefield" state and "in reserves, off battlefield" state.

How we actually play locally is much in line with your interpretation, but if we strictly follow RAW, that's the only logical conclusion one could arrive at (due to omission of clarification). This does produce some really questionable builds however (AM: 1 valk + 12 single model units; 13 units in reserves)