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Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
except it's already been addressed. the time flows differantly for differant people, for some it's been 70 years for other 7 days, and likely for others even longer


They aren't always in the warp, they can span years to even decades in some wars and the warp isn't an explanation at all, they could be far into the future the warp doesn't just slow down time. Most times the get in and out of the warp without that much of a time change.


I trhink you misunderstood me. when the great rift formed the warp leaked into everything, and during that moment time was absolutely BORKED for a time. for some worlds it was weeks, for others, months, for some YEARS. There is a reason why the 8th edition codexes have abandoned dates. GW's telling us effectively that "a concise timeline is proably FUTILE now"


It hasn't leaked into everything.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Right Behind You

BrianDavion wrote:
Skaorn wrote:
Well I'm going to disagree. The Tau are supposed to be a threat similar to the Federation vs the Imperium's Klingon Empire, a rival nation. They can still fight with any faction in the game. They can still be a drain on the Imperium's resources. About the only thing they can't do is things like trade at Necromunda, conduct espionage missions to Mars, or fight around the Eye of Terror. Then again, any SM Chapter would realistically have the same range restrictions too. GW could have also just said that Tau figured out a way to open wormholes if they did want that. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


jumm no the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of planets are equals. technologicly, and militarily. Which allowed tem to bump heads more often anywhere Kirk could go, a Klingon could go. The setting benifits by having the potential for the Tau to apper anywhere


Fine let's keep doing this. I used the Klingons and Federation in hopes that it would communicate the type of threat that it was: a rival nation. Not the Borg who just want to eat you up, any number of petulant space gods, lone worlds/asteroids that have incredible power but limited reach, terrorist organizations, or space monsters that are prevalent in the setting. There is a border, they have different ideologies, patriotism/nationalism, economies, supply issues, social pressures, and their own issues with the list of other threats above. Klingons only seemed to appear where ever because of the nature of the show. If the show runners had to show a map of were things were happening though, how much do you want to bet those appearances would be around the border of the two nations.

You say the Federation and Klingons were equal which made them rivals, but a rival does not need to be equal. Probably one of the better analogies to the Imperium and the Tau would be the Russian Empire and the Empire of Japan. Like the Imperium, Russia was in a state of decline but were still a Western power. Japan was an Eastern power, which meant that many Western nations saw them as weak and worth exploitation, but had been rapidly modernizing the country and military. When the Russo-Japanese War was fought, the Japanese soundly beat Russia. Chances are that, if Russia felt it was directly threatened by Japan, it had the resources to do exactly what the USSR did to Germany. Japan wasn't trying to push its way to Moscow though, but attacking colonial interests on its borders. It was still a pretty big black eye that Russia had to suck up and deal with.

Cuba to the USA could also be used, I mean how many times did we attempt to assassinate Castro that we've admitted to? Sure they might not have the remote strength the US has but you can't say that a Communist country surviving so close to us and despite all our attempts to topple it wasn't a black eye.

Also you don't address how the fact that a stable wormhole between two points means the Tau can now show up anywhere. I think they ended up farther North than they normally are? If GW wanted the Tau to show up anywhere, like the Eldar, they would have had the Tau develope the technology to do so. The Startide Nexus could have been some base that could project wormholes that a fleet could travel through and setup a gate to allow two way travel, for example. So, if the goal was to have the Tau be able to show up anywhere, why didn't they do something like that? Right now you have a major point of contact and a minor point of contact.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




Dandelion wrote:
Characters like Pask, Longstrike, any of the chapter masters, etc... could all just be generic units. Relics and traits could instead be given to recreate said character if your narrative needs/wants it. .


Or they could make those characters fully realized from the start, and by that I mean dead from the first publication. Captain Tycho, Lord Solar Macharius, Captain Cortez, Sergeant Naaman and Chaplain Xavier were all dead playable characters, the way it should be. The setting is very explicitly about how everyone is small and you will not be missed. It’s very important to create actual, specific characters so that they can be killed, there’s no need to have a customizable character when any MC’d cannon, remarkable toughness, or “trademark item” from the second third edition IG codex is a meaningless affectation replicated a thousand times by soldiers across 8,000 years of history and a million worlds. You have to at least give them a name.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 20:05:01


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pelicaniforce wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Characters like Pask, Longstrike, any of the chapter masters, etc... could all just be generic units. Relics and traits could instead be given to recreate said character if your narrative needs/wants it. .


Or they could make those characters fully realized from the start, and by that I mean dead from the first publication. Captain Tycho, Lord Solar Macharius, Captain Cortez, Sergeant Naaman and Chaplain Xavier were all dead playable characters, the way it should be. The setting is very explicitly about how everyone is small and you will not be missed. It’s very important to create actual, specific characters so that they can be killed, there’s no need to have a customizable character when any MC’d cannon, remarkable toughness, or “trademark item” from the second third edition IG codex is a meaningless affectation replicated a thousand times by soldiers across 8,000 years of history and a million worlds. You have to at least give them a name.


But you don't *need* specific datasheets to represent characters in the lore. Doing so only increases the number of models needed to represent them since no model=no rules. Have fluff blurbs in the codex about the legendary commander Pask but just have a tank commander datasheet. Also don't forget that special characters are tied to specific factions. It's lame that Ultramarines get all the characters but Iron Hands have nothing. Or that T'au has all the characters while Sac'ea also has nothing. Making generic characters to substitute for characters of renown multiplies the possible number of unique (player-made) characters in the game.

Another point, there are millions of heroes that live and die in the 40k universe (probably every day), limiting players to a handful of immortal characters is lame.

And lastly, making generic characters lets GW actually kill in-lore characters and progress the story logically without (as much) plot armor or contrivances. Right now Aun'va is a hologram because GW made a model for him. Had they simply had a "Supreme Ethereal" model and datasheet, Aun'va would be dead and a new ethereal could be leading the tau.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/17 02:28:07


 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

The original Rogue Trader book's intro (In the grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only war etc...) ended with the line 'whatever happens, you will not be missed'.

More recent books don't have that line. I sort of miss it.

I understand that having specific named heroes is good for marketing and making a new model a bit more special than 'Space Marine with Hat' but I've always played it that if you want to say your Iron Hands dude counts as this Ultramarine dude (before chapter tactics of course, FEH!) or your Modrian dude counts as a Cadian dude, that's cool.

 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

I'd have liked a 'special character generator' for each army. Something like take a basic character (at normal points and rules) tack on a selection of wargear (choices which include stuff they couldn't ordinarily take) at additional cost, add a table of special abilities to choose from at an additional points cost - require you give them a name - and there's your own special character. But of course with no model, pre made, that might never happen :(
   
Made in gb
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





UK

special character is now a standard character with special wargear.

Eg chaplain with Armour Indomitus.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I think the historical idea is best. Have a mix of generic characters you can have but have some characters from the past e.g. have rules for Tycho and all games involving him are assumed to be from when he was alive or someone very similar to him.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I've no problem with them having actual characters, it's not stopped GW from killing them off if it was nesscary. Creed is Pokeballed and Sgt Kell was killed by Abbaddon. both are still in codex IG.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Personally I fluff all my armies that use special characters as being m own characters that use the rules of said special characters. So instead of it being Lias Issodon it's my own chapter master with a similar fighting style who uses his rules. Something about actually using the special characters as themselves I don't like too much. It takes away from the narrative for me for some odd reason. There's that and the fact that all my armies are now custom regiments, WAAAGHs, or chapters so it wouldn't make sense lore wise.

 
   
Made in us
Yellin' Yoof





Its been in the fluff for awhile that the Tau cryo freeze their commanders. Other lower ranking tau could have been lost in the warp when the great rift sucked up the 4th sphere expedition.

As for humans, the crusade itself means that all time between wars would be spent in the warp. On top of that some one told me yarrik takes injections of a very rare serum called "Juviat" or something like that and that serum slows aging a great deal...
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

I'm sorry but I just heard the news...

Doomrider is dead.

Still trying to process...

 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
except it's already been addressed. the time flows differantly for differant people, for some it's been 70 years for other 7 days, and likely for others even longer


They aren't always in the warp, they can span years to even decades in some wars and the warp isn't an explanation at all, they could be far into the future the warp doesn't just slow down time. Most times the get in and out of the warp without that much of a time change.


I trhink you misunderstood me. when the great rift formed the warp leaked into everything, and during that moment time was absolutely BORKED for a time. for some worlds it was weeks, for others, months, for some YEARS. There is a reason why the 8th edition codexes have abandoned dates. GW's telling us effectively that "a concise timeline is proably FUTILE now"


It hasn't leaked into everything.


I must have missed that giant galactic map where the EoT had expanded from one side of the galaxy to the other then...


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




In regards to the timeline being out of sync with some of the named characters, I agree that it is a potential problem going forward, lore wise, but, tabletop wise can be completely different. Most games are played from a fun point of a view, with only a small sidelong nod to the lore (i.e. 1 Company has 10 squads, 1 captain, 2 lieutenants etc etc). On the other side of things, named characters make the novels.

There has to be a disconnect between the two.

That said, I agree that some characters should be “killed off” in the lore as the timeline progresses. This allows the storyline to refresh itself as it progresses, and helps draw in new people who don’t then feel like they have to go back and read 10-20 other books because they started halfway through a particular characters storyline that never ends.

Creed, for example, is either dead or in a “Pokeball”. This can be reflected in the lore by a new Commander taking his place, and a new storyline beginning from there. However, tabletop wise would require a new model, a new codex and a foundation in the lore already to allow a smooth transition to the tabletop. That disconnect, unfortunately, takes a lot of time.

On the flip side, Space Marines could get away with having named chapter masters for centuries in the lore. Take Dante as an example. Sure, occasionally they need to die (like the Raven Guard Chapter Master did in the war with the T’au), but, there is more freedom with them and other races.

I think, the only real issue we have is with Imperial Guard, T’au, Sisters of Battle and maybe Genestealer Cult. These are really the only factions that suffer “aging” as a notable concern. (Cult mainly resulting in their destruction one way or another and aren’t brought back in the same way Tryanids are). For these factions, I think that “named” characters in the codices, needs to be limited to very specific characters and reasons. Farsight has a reason. Shadowsun has a reason. Celestine has a reason etc etc. Straken, Creed, Harker, Pask, Longstrike, Marbo (sorry!), etc are generally standout “normal” characters who, would reasonably not be alive 2-500 years after first coming into the lore.

GW has a real reluctance a lot of the time to kill off a named character and move on, so they look for excuses and reasons to keep them around. At some point something will have to change, but, in reality, those types of changes would only happen once or twice a decade.

As for the Crusade itself. I’d love more lore on it and I want it to progress. Likewise, I want lore on the period pertaining to factions outside of the main fighting force. Was the only thing of note in those 200 years, the crusade, or did other things actually happen as well? What is happening now that it’s been over for god knows how many years. What is Abaddon and Chaos actually doing, other than, apparently, nothing at all?

The groundwork has been set, now we just need the holes to be filled.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Grimtuff wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
except it's already been addressed. the time flows differantly for differant people, for some it's been 70 years for other 7 days, and likely for others even longer


They aren't always in the warp, they can span years to even decades in some wars and the warp isn't an explanation at all, they could be far into the future the warp doesn't just slow down time. Most times the get in and out of the warp without that much of a time change.


I trhink you misunderstood me. when the great rift formed the warp leaked into everything, and during that moment time was absolutely BORKED for a time. for some worlds it was weeks, for others, months, for some YEARS. There is a reason why the 8th edition codexes have abandoned dates. GW's telling us effectively that "a concise timeline is proably FUTILE now"


It hasn't leaked into everything.


I must have missed that giant galactic map where the EoT had expanded from one side of the galaxy to the other then...


Again it hasn't leaked into everything.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
except it's already been addressed. the time flows differantly for differant people, for some it's been 70 years for other 7 days, and likely for others even longer


They aren't always in the warp, they can span years to even decades in some wars and the warp isn't an explanation at all, they could be far into the future the warp doesn't just slow down time. Most times the get in and out of the warp without that much of a time change.


I trhink you misunderstood me. when the great rift formed the warp leaked into everything, and during that moment time was absolutely BORKED for a time. for some worlds it was weeks, for others, months, for some YEARS. There is a reason why the 8th edition codexes have abandoned dates. GW's telling us effectively that "a concise timeline is proably FUTILE now"


It hasn't leaked into everything.


I must have missed that giant galactic map where the EoT had expanded from one side of the galaxy to the other then...


Again it hasn't leaked into everything.


No but it HAS leaked around eeneugh that when it first happend it impacted the flow of time accross the entire galaxy at least for a time. THAT is cannon.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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