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Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
It was more like an RPG in many respects yep. That’s what I liked about it. Only thing I could take unbridgeable to at what you said was it wasn’t like a “proper” wargame!
As confrontation, I assume you are talking about original necromunda game in white dwarf back in the old rogue trader times. That game was awesome. Complex, but so awesome. For years only had half the rules until a mate turned up the other part of the article.
2nd wasn't bad if you stuck to 2000 pts or less, ignored all the grenades and did guestimate measuring (measure and move 1 model in a squad, then move all the others up to, but not in front of, that first model.
We also didn't mess with turning templates for vehicles most of the time. None of us were trying to sneak in shenanigans so games were really fun and played at a decent pace.
Agreed. I'm convinced every game of 2nd edition missed 40-50% of the rules. I did a support site for 2nd edition a little while ago and while creating loads of cheat-sheets for various sections of the game, I found a HEAP of rules we never used in high school.
We also did the "this is about 45 degrees" turning, we could eye-ball it, so we skipped the tools, etc. Remember during 2nd Games Workshop was very much a "by geeks, for geeks" company. They were business-poor, but were at the top of their game for a lot of things. Even Games Workshop themselves was hesitant to run tournaments and when they did they introduced random arbitrary rules to prevent people from spamming stuff.
This is the GW that came out in White Dwarf and said "hey take these strategy cards we produced...and rip the following ones up, they're crap". A hugely different company. They had actual responses in White Dwarf to questions about spamming/cheesy rules and they'd respond "Don't do that, if you do it, expect someone to punch you!", lol.
When I think back to 2nd edition, it's not the game itself that appealed to me. It was the nostalgia of the atmosphere the company produced. The feeling I got reading White Dwarf was very much like a fireside chat...as opposed to sales propaganda for the latest plastic kit. It was a different feel to the company. We were also high schoolers on a budget so almost none of us were able to run beardy gak (except Ian...god dammit...that kid...and his dad who funded his nonsense!).
There's another thing I miss...
All the free stuff they used to give away. Every so often in a white dwarf was a photocopy and cut out building to assemble, new spell cards, new rules, heck even new games.
For a minute they even had a section on their website for free pdf print and assemble scenery pieces.
While we're on the subject, I'll bring up the often-clash-about-bugaboo. Metal miniatures.
I think GW lost a huge benefit when they moved away from metal miniatures. Blisters were a great way to have a kid spend his $7-10 in his pocket on a figure he would rush home and paint. My Eldar army had a lot of squads of three...why? Because the Fire Dragon blister came with three minis and it's what I spent my $9 on the local game store that weekend.
It also meant far more unique characters, named characters, and event characters. It was far easier for GW to say "hey what about this cool scenario we're doing, or this campaign book, let's whip up a handful of special metal minis". Because metal allows you to do that quickly and without anywhere near the complexity of having a factory in Chinese tool an expensive machine to produce a plastic sprue. There is a reason for GW launching a unit in a codex back in the 90's and releasing 2-3 different sculpts of that model...because they could and it didn't break the bank.
Plastic was a smart move for squads and vehicles, but they should have kept metal around for character models. Neither Finecast nor the way they price plastic individual minis lets them do what they used to do. It's one of the reasons we had so many miniatures for Necromunda, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, Gorkamorka, etc. You can do a hell of a lot more minis in metal than you can plastic...and if it doesn't work out, you're not out any money, just some sculpting time and a few round-diskette spin molds. The way GW is going...when they retire the last of the Finecast - you'll probably see a marked drop in special characters for anybody other than the big codices/armies. Unless GW adopts a new strategy (i.e. multi heroes in a plastic sprue) the days of seeing characters and named minis for extraneous Space Marine chapters is all but gone.
Eww, no. Metal is a terrible material to work with, and TBH most of those old sculpts are valued more for nostalgia than their actual quality. Artistic decisions aside, the limited and often awkward poses, giant blocks of metal filling in areas behind arms/guns/etc, huge gaps between parts, were far worse than a modern kit is expected to be. And that's before you get into the difficulty of cleaning up casting flaws or doing any kind of conversion work. Metal is dead, and it needs to stay that way.
Now, resin, on the other hand, that's where GW should have gone. Better sculpt quality than you can do in plastic, and none of the material flaws of metal. It's just inexcusable that they went with finecast instead, and as a result of that debacle killed off everything but their plastic kits.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Elbows wrote: I'll humbly disagree. 50% or more of the miniatures I do today are metal, from a variety of companies. It's a perfectly fine material.
Ok. You can disagree and be wrong. Metal offers no advantages over resin and has some major disadvantages. And it certainly isn't a good material when we're talking about obsolete GW sculpts done with GW levels of quality control.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Elbows wrote: I'll humbly disagree. 50% or more of the miniatures I do today are metal, from a variety of companies. It's a perfectly fine material.
Ok. You can disagree and be wrong. Metal offers no advantages over resin and has some major disadvantages. And it certainly isn't a good material when we're talking about obsolete GW sculpts done with GW levels of quality control.
Metal is stronger/less brittle than resin. If a model.comes in both, metal all the way. Aspect Warriors, Calgar, old Greater Daemons, always meyal for me. Also the weight feels good, but thats more subjective.
Elbows wrote: I'll humbly disagree. 50% or more of the miniatures I do today are metal, from a variety of companies. It's a perfectly fine material.
Ok. You can disagree and be wrong. Metal offers no advantages over resin and has some major disadvantages. And it certainly isn't a good material when we're talking about obsolete GW sculpts done with GW levels of quality control.
Metal is stronger/less brittle than resin. If a model.comes in both, metal all the way. Aspect Warriors, Calgar, old Greater Daemons, always meyal for me. Also the weight feels good, but thats more subjective.
Yeah but you can't have the same types of sculpts with metal, like thin delicate parts, metal had detail but only in a mass of metal. You couldn't get the designs now' like Celestine on metal. The weight did feel good but it was the only upside to metal. It chips, its terrible to work with in converting in comparison to plastic, its limiting in sculpting, making large models is a nightmare to assemble.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 04:16:19
Not in any relevant way. Resin is more than strong enough for normal use, the strength advantage of metal only applies if you're being careless and throwing a heap of models in a shoe box. And metal has a huge strength disadvantage in the fact that paint chips much more easily, even with normal handling. Unless you don't paint your models (in which case you should quit the hobby) metal will have you doing far more repair work than resin. And that's assuming identical sculpts, ignoring the fact that the places where resin is most prone to breaking are fine details that can't be done at all in metal. If you limit your sculpting choices to what can be done in metal resin should almost never break.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I never had any problem with chipping on metal, unless I was doing something stupid with it. And I've definitely had metal swords etc. last longer than resin ones.
. . .
I'm not sold on the better detail through resin except in very extreme cases. There are a number of metals from even the 2nd Ed era that I'd hold up to todays standards with some of the detail on them. Imo most of the time the detail has more to do with the quality of sculpt than with the medium itself.
Isn't Celestine currently plastic? I actually like her older model better.
Insectum7 wrote: I never had any problem with chipping on metal, unless I was doing something stupid with it. And I've definitely had metal swords etc. last longer than resin ones.
. . .
I'm not sold on the better detail through resin except in very extreme cases. There are a number of metals from even the 2nd Ed era that I'd hold up to todays standards with some of the detail on them. Imo most of the time the detail has more to do with the quality of sculpt than with the medium itself.
Isn't Celestine currently plastic? I actually like her older model better.
Metal models chip just from being in foam cases. Well FW models are far more detailed than metal, but when I mean detail I mean that isn't included in the mass of the model, there are no metal models that are like Celestine that have small details flowing/branching out from the main mass of the model. I mean people have their preferences but on paper metal is just really bad in comparison. You can like metal more but I don't see how people could argue convincingly that it is better. It has so many drawbacks, chipping (which has so many complaints, so anecdotal evidence that yours doesn't chip doesn't really hold), converting problems, sculpting limitations, its expensive etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 05:00:29
"Expensive" though? I don't think you can sell that one. The old metals were far cheaper than finecast. I mean, there's a lot of complications around pricing, but no equivalent resin model GW has sold has ever been cheaper than the corresponding metal one afaik.
"Expensive" though? I don't think you can sell that one. The old metals were far cheaper than finecast. I mean, there's a lot of complications around pricing, but no equivalent resin model GW has sold has ever been cheaper than the corresponding metal one afaik.
Metal is far more expensive than plastic, even just from a material point of view. Inflation, CPI, PPP etc. always change, what costs 10 pounds 20 years ago doesn't cost 10 pound anymore, plus GW's pricing has been steadily rising for its whole existence and far more than inflation.
Metals extra weight also a huge problem. There was a reason Abaddon was known as armless. I had a metal dread back in 2nd and because I didn't know about pinning (which would require me to also buy a suitable drill and brass wire) it was always coming apart.
On a nostalgic note remember GWs mail order service? You could order a single model, a small bit or part or a selected unit.
I remember in school me and a few mates all chipping in our pocket money to pick up some Ork heavy weapons guys.
Shipping and the exchange rate killed that
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Ratius wrote: On a nostalgic note remember GWs mail order service? You could order a single model, a small bit or part or a selected unit.
I remember in school me and a few mates all chipping in our pocket money to pick up some Ork heavy weapons guys.
Shipping and the exchange rate killed that
Yup, remember the thunderhawk/land raider were only mail order.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 08:36:53
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
I think you are being picky here mate. He said that it was like an RPG with lots of small fussy but rules, which is true as I don’t see table top games like that any more, only RPG’s. It’s you who has decided character creation is the bench mark when he outlined his valid reasons for the comparison.so I would leave it if I were u, you just appear troll like if I carry on.
As for metal vs resin. I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail. But to work with, modelling and painting, for me metal is horrible. I see why people like the sculpts but I hate modelling them and painting them.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail.
That doesn't make any sense. Anything that can be done in metal can be done in resin.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Elbows wrote: I think GW lost a huge benefit when they moved away from metal miniatures. Blisters were a great way to have a kid spend his $7-10 in his pocket on a figure he would rush home and paint. My Eldar army had a lot of squads of three...why? Because the Fire Dragon blister came with three minis and it's what I spent my $9 on the local game store that weekend.
I remember coming home with the odd blister pack from my local model shop on days out too. Terminators came two per pack and I remember buying the Inquisitor/Ordo Malleus and Cyclone Missile Launcher packs after the rules were published in WD. Good memories.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
The nature of the role you're playing changes, that's all. In D&D, your role is a single character. In 40k 2nd edition, you're basically playing the role of a commander overseeing the actins of a platoon or so. In later editions, you're commanding a company or larger.
Also, RPGsare the roots of 40k. The original rules came from a sci-fi RPG under development that was converted to a small-scale skirmish game when Brian Ansell realised the miniatures were popular and they could write a set of rules to help shift more. 1st edition makes a lot of mention of a GM. 2nd edition was a more traditional 2-player game, but all that complexity - the huge stat block, all the different equipment available, etc, is a holdover from its RPG beginnings.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail.
That doesn't make any sense. Anything that can be done in metal can be done in resin.
I can sort of see his point; comparing finecast models to metal originals, resin is better at holding sharp edges than metal (e.g. the edges of Space Marine armour plates). Some prefer one, some the other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 09:22:40
Unless it's a one/ two piece model, metal is a nightmare to work with, store/transport and conversions are a pain. And if it's a one or two piece model then it's basically static.
6400 pts+ 8th
[1,800] Chaos Knights | 
[1,250] Thousand Sons | 
[1,000] Grey Knights | 40K editions: RT, 8, 9, 10 | 