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So where did it say that daemon princes were just possessed? I can't remember that bit.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
That must have really been some fething hell of a fever dream to imagine buying that book and reading it on my breaks at work...

Seeing that you can't answer questions on it, especially pivotal and memorable moments in the book shows that you did't read it. The only one you are convincing is yourself lol If you weren't being an ass I wouldn't have embarrassed yoy in showing that you didn't actually read the book. That you keep denying, shows that it bothers you and you don't want to be seen as pretending to read it which, means if you had read it you'd have answered the questions.

No, it's just I don't want to play your little gatekeeping games, and winding you up is for more fun TBH...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
That must have really been some fething hell of a fever dream to imagine buying that book and reading it on my breaks at work...

Seeing that you can't answer questions on it, especially pivotal and memorable moments in the book shows that you did't read it. The only one you are convincing is yourself lol If you weren't being an ass I wouldn't have embarrassed yoy in showing that you didn't actually read the book. That you keep denying, shows that it bothers you and you don't want to be seen as pretending to read it which, means if you had read it you'd have answered the questions.

No, it's just I don't want to play your little gatekeeping games, and winding you up is for more fun TBH...

Suuuuurrrrrrrreeeeeeeee. How on earth are you winding me up exactly You jumped at proving me wrong with your first comment, so what happened. Ah yes I called you out and you can't prove you read the book, the only person buying that 'you don't want to play gatekeeper' is you, we all know you and how you love proving people wrong and being an ass about it. I'm an ass but an honest ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Animus wrote:
So where did it say that daemon princes were just possessed? I can't remember that bit.

In Lord of silence or the night lords novel?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Which is why I asked whether this is new lore or just ignorance of the lore.

It is the lore in that book and may work differently in some other book. 40K 'canon' is very loose, it is not some consistent whole. This is like agonising over why it was the Joker who killed Bruce Wayne's parents in Burton's Batman films while in Nolan's Batman films that was not the case.

 Crimson wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Which is why I asked whether this is new lore or just ignorance of the lore.

It is the lore in that book and may work differently in some other book. 40K 'canon' is very loose, it is not some consistent whole. This is like agonising over why it was the Joker who killed Bruce Wayne's parents in Burton's Batman films while in Nolan's Batman films that was not the case.

Don't argue then. If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't have looked back and realised that Dantine was a human and I'd still be wrong.

Hmmm, thought I was going on Dakka, but seem to have found Twitter instead.

It doesn’t matter how well read any of us think we are, BL’s focus is not on sticking to strict rules, or anything that’s come before. They can and will do whatever they want in their own sandbox. Enjoy the story for what it is, or walk away.

 hungryp wrote:
Hmmm, thought I was going on Dakka, but seem to have found Twitter instead.

It doesn’t matter how well read any of us think we are, BL’s focus is not on sticking to strict rules, or anything that’s come before. They can and will do whatever they want in their own sandbox. Enjoy the story for what it is, or walk away.

Yeah I thought we are on dakka when we discuss the lore. This isn't a discussion about how good the story is.

The warp is a place that has a “god” that existed before it was born. To expect consistency instead of a constant shifting of methods and effects that lead to something that is frustrating and near impossible to classify doesn't seem to respect the written lore about Chaos and how is effects the materium very well.

But everything. Has to be in. Order. In accordance with. The OP's narrow. View of what 40k is.

 Grimtuff wrote:
But everything. Has to be in. Order. In accordance with. The OP's narrow. View of what 40k is.

It does in every other case when people are talking about the lore, but because it involves the warp, it shouldn't be held to the same criterion. Narrow view is better than no view but pretending you have a view lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
The warp is a place that has a “god” that existed before it was born. To expect consistency instead of a constant shifting of methods and effects that lead to something that is frustrating and near impossible to classify doesn't seem to respect the written lore about Chaos and how is effects the materium very well.

So we should never debate about the warp, the warp has consistency. Daemons feed on emotions, the warp has no chronology, you can bargain with the warp, you can bind daemons to your service, daemons can only exist in the materium for a limited period of time, daemons can't go into the astronomicum. When people say there are no answers when it comes to the warp (because its the warp and no other reason) is very frustrating and adds nothing to the discussion. Whether daemon princes are autonomous or are possessed is a a definite yes or no answer.

Ascension to daemonhood feeling like possession from the PoV of the ascending mortal has always been a valid interpretation of the fluff.

It follows logically from the way daemons and the warp work. In particular, linear time doesn't really work in the warp and daemons (from their own PoV at least) are timeless and eternal. They are also fragments of their patron, portions of the raw emotional power represented by that god.

So when you become a daemon prince, the 'new' daemon-version of you feels like it has always existed (because in a sense it has). It has your mortal memories, but also the memories of an eternal and immortal being of pure emotion, a fragment of a god. It is a fundamentally different entity from the 'old' mortal you.

If the mortal you accepts this transformation and is subsumed into your new daemon prince self, then all is well and good. You're a different person now, but that's OK. Mortal concepts of 'self' are largely illusory anyway. You might feel some momentary regret as those parts of your soul that are incompatible with being a daemonic servant of your patron are lost, but that soon passes. Once your humanity is gone, you quickly lose the ability to even comprehend what you have given up.

But if the mortal you had some seed of self-doubt, and wasn't really quite ready to suddenly have the might of a daemon-god poured into you... if you maybe wanted to retain some sense of humanity or morality rather than just become a manifestation of your own darkest desires and emotions... well, then the mortal and daemonic versions of your soul can't simply combine into one coherent consciousness. To the mortal you, it feels like this alien daemonic presence just set up shop inside you. You might know intellectually that the daemon is really just another manifestation of your own soul, or you might outright reject it and try to fight it. Either way, the daemon version of you is by far the more powerful of the two, so the mortal you is not going to win that fight. It's going to feel a lot like involuntary possession. But it's actually more like spiritual multiple personality disorder.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Ascension to daemonhood feeling like possession from the PoV of the ascending mortal has always been a valid interpretation of the fluff.

It follows logically from the way daemons and the warp work. In particular, linear time doesn't really work in the warp and daemons (from their own PoV at least) are timeless and eternal. They are also fragments of their patron, portions of the raw emotional power represented by that god.

So when you become a daemon prince, the 'new' daemon-version of you feels like it has always existed (because in a sense it has). It has your mortal memories, but also the memories of an eternal and immortal being of pure emotion, a fragment of a god. It is a fundamentally different entity from the 'old' mortal you.

If the mortal you accepts this transformation and is subsumed into your new daemon prince self, then all is well and good. You're a different person now, but that's OK. Mortal concepts of 'self' are largely illusory anyway. You might feel some momentary regret as those parts of your soul that are incompatible with being a daemonic servant of your patron are lost, but that soon passes. Once your humanity is gone, you quickly lose the ability to even comprehend what you have given up.

But if the mortal you had some seed of self-doubt, and wasn't really quite ready to suddenly have the might of a daemon-god poured into you... if you maybe wanted to retain some sense of humanity or morality rather than just become a manifestation of your own darkest desires and emotions... well, then the mortal and daemonic versions of your soul can't simply combine into one coherent consciousness. To the mortal you, it feels like this alien daemonic presence just set up shop inside you. You might know intellectually that the daemon is really just another manifestation of your own soul, or you might outright reject it and try to fight it. Either way, the daemon version of you is by far the more powerful of the two, so the mortal you is not going to win that fight. It's going to feel a lot like involuntary possession. But it's actually more like spiritual multiple personality disorder.

That's a lot of conjecture but at least we are starting to have a discussion. To exist in the warp you have to be a daemon, so I understand it would be logical; however I hate the fact that characters you like and love are just relegated to being a daemon. If they are part daemon and part themselves I could live with that.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
But everything. Has to be in. Order. In accordance with. The OP's narrow. View of what 40k is.

It does in every other case when people are talking about the lore, but because it involves the warp, it shouldn't be held to the same criterion. Narrow view is better than no view but pretending you have a view lol

I thought. You said you'd. Read the. Book.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
But everything. Has to be in. Order. In accordance with. The OP's narrow. View of what 40k is.

It does in every other case when people are talking about the lore, but because it involves the warp, it shouldn't be held to the same criterion. Narrow view is better than no view but pretending you have a view lol

I thought. You said you'd. Read the. Book.

Half way through it, but you haven't read it at all. Though you need to re-read that as nothing suggests from that comment that I haven't.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
But everything. Has to be in. Order. In accordance with. The OP's narrow. View of what 40k is.

It does in every other case when people are talking about the lore, but because it involves the warp, it shouldn't be held to the same criterion. Narrow view is better than no view but pretending you have a view lol

I thought. You said you'd. Read the. Book.

Half way through it, but you haven't read it at all. Though you need to re-read that as nothing suggests from that comment that I haven't.

Have I. Not? Strange how the. Warp works. Must have read. It in the. Future.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
But everything. Has to be in. Order. In accordance with. The OP's narrow. View of what 40k is.

It does in every other case when people are talking about the lore, but because it involves the warp, it shouldn't be held to the same criterion. Narrow view is better than no view but pretending you have a view lol

I thought. You said you'd. Read the. Book.

Half way through it, but you haven't read it at all. Though you need to re-read that as nothing suggests from that comment that I haven't.

Have I. Not? Strange how the. Warp works. Must have read. It in the. Future.

Del, I think for what it's worth, amending the OP to reflect the fact that you've missed certain things, and therefore certain assumptions are incorrect, may be in order.

Just so the whole Dantine thing is put to rest, and maybe also clarifying that you've not read all of it yet, just again for the sake of preventing further discussions about things that don't need discussing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Del, I think for what it's worth, amending the OP to reflect the fact that you've missed certain things, and therefore certain assumptions are incorrect, may be in order.

Just so the whole Dantine thing is put to rest, and maybe also clarifying that you've not read all of it yet, just again for the sake of preventing further discussions about things that don't need discussing.

Good call.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


So we should never debate about the warp, the warp has consistency. Daemons feed on emotions, the warp has no chronology, you can bargain with the warp, you can bind daemons to your service, daemons can only exist in the materium for a limited period of time, daemons can't go into the astronomicum. When people say there are no answers when it comes to the warp (because its the warp and no other reason) is very frustrating and adds nothing to the discussion. Whether daemon princes are autonomous or are possessed is a a definite yes or no answer.

You can bargain with Daemons and even the Chaos Gods because you have something they want that for whatever reason they cannot access by themselves. That the manner they use to enter these bargains is by obeying certain constraints of the material universe is on them; presumably they have a reason for it.

Daemons not going into the Astronomican is presumably either because of tech-artifice from the Crusade era/DoT, or because the Emperor is sitting on Terra with a nasty hangover and a grudge towards daemons.

But really, the biggest thing for me is that if the warp has no chronology, or in other words time is either meaningless or has a different meaning, than the laws of causality (at least how they are generally defined and understood as being sequential actions that rely on the concept of time to give them context) are also meaningless. That has big ramifications for what is and isn't possible (particularly in the context of dead/not dead as was one of the original inquiries of this thread) but establishes the warp as a place of inherent contradictions. It's a place where just about anything is possible, so of course there will be daemon princes who are possessed. Of course there will be daemon princes who are not possessed. And of course there will be all manner of things between those two extremes.

Honestly Del I'm convinced just has a bone to pick with Christ Wraight.

Exhibit A: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756994.page

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly Del I'm convinced just has a bone to pick with Christ Wraight.

Exhibit A: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756994.page

Didn't even know he wrote that, but I do have a bone to pick with him for Charion Throne. The guy is a great writer but the last two novels I've read by him have been awful. How sad are you that you are going through my comments, do you know how old that is lol

Just a quick reminder that Rule One is Be Polite. Thanks!

I always thought that elevation was something different to possession like in cases with the Gal Vorbak and the Luperci but it unfortunately doesn't seem to be that different. A lesser possession seems to be more beneficial in the long run as you don't lose your self to it. Perhaps it has something to do with the nature of the being that is possessing you, lesser or greater Daemon, and what you are. In the case of Primarchs perphaps because of their existing connection to the warp they are able to keep their selves more as they were and kinda fight the Daemon that possessed them. In the case of your usual Space Marine, say Vandred of the Night Lords trilogy, you will eventually lose entirely to the Daemon until your conscious is pushed to the side to let the Daemon take over.

I much prefer the idea idea that you aren't possessed by a daemon but you are imbued with the Chaos Gods power turning you into a Daemon.

I guess being possessed rather than 'upgrading' would explain how your true name would come about, as the Daemon possessing you would already have one. But then what's to stop one being granted upon elevation as part of the deal.

I agree, Pilau Rice. It makes sense to me that, because mortals already partially exist in the Warp ("souls"), that aspect is simply strengthened and developed by the patron deity (the whole Path of Glory thing) and the effects manifest in real space as mutations.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I always thought that elevation was something different to possession like in cases with the Gal Vorbak and the Luperci but it unfortunately doesn't seem to be that different. A lesser possession seems to be more beneficial in the long run as you don't lose your self to it. Perhaps it has something to do with the nature of the being that is possessing you, lesser or greater Daemon, and what you are. In the case of Primarchs perphaps because of their existing connection to the warp they are able to keep their selves more as they were and kinda fight the Daemon that possessed them. In the case of your usual Space Marine, say Vandred of the Night Lords trilogy, you will eventually lose entirely to the Daemon until your conscious is pushed to the side to let the Daemon take over.

I much prefer the idea idea that you aren't possessed by a daemon but you are imbued with the Chaos Gods power turning you into a Daemon.

I guess being possessed rather than 'upgrading' would explain how your true name would come about, as the Daemon possessing you would already have one. But then what's to stop one being granted upon elevation as part of the deal.

It is also possible that the possessed and the possessee merge together forming a new gestalt entity which is neither and both.

I think we need to consider the answer to the question "What is a Deamon?"

Deamons are essentially an extension of their patron god, a blood letter, is a "little piece" of Khorne etc. The greater Deamons are their own beings in that they have their own names etc, but they're very much attached to their god. it stands to reason a deamon prince is much the same, and thus well a Deamon prince would retain autonomy. they'd ALSO be absorbed to one degree or another into their patron.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
It's a little something called "artistic licence"... and has been a part of Black Library - and pretty much all fiction writing since... well, forever.

Which is why I asked whether this is new lore or just ignorance of the lore.

I think this might be to root of your problem. There isn't really such a thing as "new" and "old" lore in a lot of 40k writing. Some things change, yes. But there is no real consistency within the writing about how concepts work, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of official lore bible or set of guidelines for many, many areas of the background. As a result we end up with contradictory accounts or entirely new concepts suddenly showing up that don't make a lot of sense. More often than not it's because the author thought it would work well for the story. You can't really claim it's ignorance if there isn't a defined official version of something. I don't think there's really much sense in thinking about the lore as "official" and immutable when any single author can just throw that out the window whenever they feel like it.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think we need to consider the answer to the question "What is a Deamon?"

Deamons are essentially an extension of their patron god, a blood letter, is a "little piece" of Khorne etc. The greater Deamons are their own beings in that they have their own names etc, but they're very much attached to their god. it stands to reason a deamon prince is much the same, and thus well a Deamon prince would retain autonomy. they'd ALSO be absorbed to one degree or another into their patron.

Lesser Daemons have names too. There's one in this book that I've not read in the guise of a raggedy, decrepit crow.