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Sigh, @Mokoshkana could you please read the conversation you are commenting on....

The conversation went something like this.
A)-1 to hit (roughly) cancels out re-roll misses. It's the equivalent to giving your entire army re-roll misses. Its super powerful
B)Taking away re-rolls is actually a good thing
C)And what about armies that don't blanket re-roll everything (aka most of them)

We are talking about the equivalence in interaction between re-roll misses and -1 to hit and the availability of one compared to the other.

And the -1 as an army wide trait has a range restriction. You conveniently leave that out. If that range is increased to 15 or 18, its effectiveness goes down immensely.

Sigh, @Ordana
A) That's not a valid comparison. Making one army harder to hit is not the same as give a different army (or even the same one) the ability to re-roll everything. I understand your statistical comparison in a vacuum, but this game isn't a vacuum.
B) I concur
C) NO army blanket rerolls everything except for an Ultramarine Army with RG and everything in his bubble. Guess we should change his ability as its too powerful if its equivalent to an Army wide -1

 mokoshkana wrote:
And the -1 as an army wide trait has a range restriction. You conveniently leave that out. If that range is increased to 15 or 18, its effectiveness goes down immensely.

It will go down, sure.
Does it still apply for the first 2 turns of the game and has most of the damage been done at that point? Pretty much yeah.
They also tends to deploy and play in such a way to keep you away from the high value units so that getting within 18, let alone 12" tends to be a problem.

And none of that changes that if you propose an army wide trait for re-roll all misses against units outside of 12" (or 18" if you will) the cries of "OP" will be deafening.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:
And the -1 as an army wide trait has a range restriction. You conveniently leave that out. If that range is increased to 15 or 18, its effectiveness goes down immensely.

Sigh, @Ordana
A) That's not a valid comparison. Making one army harder to hit is not the same as give a different army (or even the same one) the ability to re-roll everything. I understand your statistical comparison in a vacuum, but this game isn't a vacuum.
B) I concur
C) NO army blanket rerolls everything except for an Ultramarine Army with RG and everything in his bubble. Guess we should change his ability as its too powerful if its equivalent to an Army wide -1

My sarcasm detector is broken so please help me here. Is your point C an attempt at sarcasm? Because Girlymans re-roll aura has completely destroyed the SM codex by forcing repeated nerfs to anything remotely playable in the codex. It is a clear example of an OP rule negatively effecting the game in a big way.

Are major game changing errata like this really a Chapter Approved thing though? They added additional rules, but never a complete revamp. A big change like this would have likely appeared in the Big FAQ and have been a beta rule first.

But honestly, I wouldn't mind.

 Ordana wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
And the -1 as an army wide trait has a range restriction. You conveniently leave that out. If that range is increased to 15 or 18, its effectiveness goes down immensely.

It will go down, sure.
Does it still apply for the first 2 turns of the game and has most of the damage been done at that point? Pretty much yeah.
They also tends to deploy and play in such a way to keep you away from the high value units so that getting within 18, let alone 12" tends to be a problem.

And none of that changes that if you propose an army wide trait for re-roll all misses against units outside of 12" (or 18" if you will) the cries of "OP" will be deafening.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:
And the -1 as an army wide trait has a range restriction. You conveniently leave that out. If that range is increased to 15 or 18, its effectiveness goes down immensely.

Sigh, @Ordana
A) That's not a valid comparison. Making one army harder to hit is not the same as give a different army (or even the same one) the ability to re-roll everything. I understand your statistical comparison in a vacuum, but this game isn't a vacuum.
B) I concur
C) NO army blanket rerolls everything except for an Ultramarine Army with RG and everything in his bubble. Guess we should change his ability as its too powerful if its equivalent to an Army wide -1

My sarcasm detector is broken so please help me here. Is your point C an attempt at sarcasm? Because Girlymans re-roll aura has completely destroyed the SM codex by forcing repeated nerfs to anything remotely playable in the codex. It is a clear example of an OP rule negatively effecting the game in a big way.

You inferred earlier that CWE has army wide blanket re-rolls:

 Ordana wrote:

Spoiler:

we're not talking about 'some type of re-roll' we are talking about entire armies that negate re-roll fails entirely. That you can get 1 unit to re-roll 'some' dice (all is again very limited) still makes everything else in your army dogshit.
Hence my use of the words 'blanket re-roll everything'.

A non-exhaustive list is:
Space Marines (and various subfactions)
Guard
AdMech
IK
CSM (and various subfactions)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids
GSC

So.... everything except Eldar? Who between Reapers and Hemlocks ignoring it, Guide and Linked-Fire can pretty much re-roll all their major elements.

Which is not true at all. I'm not being sarcastic, I am actually pointing out the only army with an ability for blanket re-rolls is Ultramarines with RG. Eldar can re-roll some dice here and there but the entire army is not able to blanket re-roll everything.

As for SM being nerfed due to RG, that is the exact same thing that is happening to CWE due to Ynnari, but that's an aside for another time.

Ordana wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.

3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.

*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!

Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.

No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one

And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.

Sigh. Then they get a penalty to hit. This is a defensive tool against shooting, and it's a good thing. It's MEANT to have an impact.

Either way, Tyranids most common source of -1 is a targeted power affecting a single unit lol, NOT a blanket -1 to everything buff

Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.

3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.

*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!

Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.

No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one

-1 to hit bones tyranids harder than most armies. They don't even have a reroll hits to take away. Plenty of units hit on 4's. Plenty of units need to advance to shoot - so now you are hitting on 6's with a -1.

Not saying that a 10 point upgrade like sporeocyst is problematic. It's not - I love the upgrade. A blanket -1 to hit trait is basically like a 10-20 point upgrade on every unit for free. Absolutely insane. Plus it scales incredibly hard with additional -1 to hits.

OFC - I am of the opinion that there are too many defenses that always work in this game. I think more weapons need to ignore invo saves - I think more weapons need to ignore to hit penalties (or at least stratagems should exist that do this). Right now if you have good invos and to hit penalities you are basically immune to damage. Outside of mortal wounds.

It impacts our shooting too, as it's a defensive tool against shooting, but while we don't have the BS to shoot through, we deal with it in our own way by using assaulty units, powers, etc. Very few armies in the game have no options to deal with it, and these armies are the ones with other problems elsewhere. Tyranids ALSO don't have the AP to deal with 2+ saves everywhere either, the only worthwhile gun with AP is pretty much the impaler cannon, so any target of the dakka is just as survivable. The game needs defense against shooting, that's all there is to it.

The way to rein in shooting is to make good guns more expensive or give guns less insane stats.
The solution is not to throw minus to hit on things (and only some things so those without it are fethed) and make people throw buckets of dice that do next to nothing.

 Ordana wrote:
The way to rein in shooting is to make good guns more expensive or give guns less insane stats.
The solution is not to throw minus to hit on things (and only some things so those without it are fethed) and make people throw buckets of dice that do next to nothing.

You can change every single gun in the game to make them more expensive, or you can just give out a couple of defensive options sensibly and achieve the same impact.

and what you do with units like plaguebearers that wont give a gak about being in cover? lose that -1 to hit would make them cheaper? I really doubt that rule will be implemented, but in case i should doubt about mental integrity of GW game designers, instead of erase a whole rule why just dont let stack multiple -1? isn't that more simple? They really cant write rules properly, editions pass and always same dumbness...

 blackmage wrote:
and what you do with units like plaguebearers that wont give a gak about being in cover? lose that -1 to hit would make them cheaper? I really doubt that rule will be implemented, but in case i should doubt about mental integrity of GW game designers, instead of erase a whole rule why just dont let stack multiple -1? isn't that more simple? They really cant write rules properly, editions pass and always same dumbness...

I agree, but remember that so far it's just the players. Though GW has made some terrible changes already.

I don't think removing stacking is the answer either. I think just removing / changing the specific offending instances of the rule is the answer. Most sources of -1 in the game aren't even resembling OP.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The way to rein in shooting is to make good guns more expensive or give guns less insane stats.
The solution is not to throw minus to hit on things (and only some things so those without it are fethed) and make people throw buckets of dice that do next to nothing.

You can change every single gun in the game to make them more expensive, or you can just give out a couple of defensive options sensibly and achieve the same impact.

And what happens to those armies who don't have access to a minus to hit when we are using that to balance out of control shooting?
Or do you just introduce a new rule? "all models are at -1 to hit in Matched Play".

 Ordana wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The way to rein in shooting is to make good guns more expensive or give guns less insane stats.
The solution is not to throw minus to hit on things (and only some things so those without it are fethed) and make people throw buckets of dice that do next to nothing.

You can change every single gun in the game to make them more expensive, or you can just give out a couple of defensive options sensibly and achieve the same impact.

And what happens to those armies who don't have access to a minus to hit when we are using that to balance out of control shooting?
Or do you just introduce a new rule? "all models are at -1 to hit in Matched Play".

No, because not all armies need models with defensive options against shooting, and have their own strengths?

This really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.

Maybe just removing them "chapter tactics wide", while units, powers and whatnot still give -1. Some modifiers on some units are ok I think.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The way to rein in shooting is to make good guns more expensive or give guns less insane stats.
The solution is not to throw minus to hit on things (and only some things so those without it are fethed) and make people throw buckets of dice that do next to nothing.

You can change every single gun in the game to make them more expensive, or you can just give out a couple of defensive options sensibly and achieve the same impact.

And what happens to those armies who don't have access to a minus to hit when we are using that to balance out of control shooting?
Or do you just introduce a new rule? "all models are at -1 to hit in Matched Play".

No, because not all armies need models with defensive options against shooting, and have their own strengths?

This really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.

Yeah heaven forbid gunline has an actual counter!

So, below are the top 5 armies from a 70-man event held over the weekend. It was an ETC style event, so running eternal war and maelstrom missions, not ITC missions (though still giving ITC points).
1st place
Ynnari. Only units with natural negative to hit modifiers were 3 Alaitoc Craftworld flyers and 1 Wave Serpent (if auxiliary -1 cp detachments get it). EDIT - also contains 2 units of 5 Ynnari rangers.
2nd place
Ynnari. ZERO units with natural negative to hit modifiers. EDIT - also contains 3 units of Ynnari Rangers.
3rd place
Cultist spam and thousand sons. Only units with a -1 were a Chaos Lord and 1 40-man blob.
4th place
Drukari. 2 Razorwing Jetfighters.
5th place
Guard, Custodes and 1 DA libby. 1 Custodes -1 to hit banner.

6th-10th only saw 1 more list with natural negative to hit penalties, and that was again on Drukari flyers and 1 Alaitoc Battalion (without flyers) in the same list.

Lists and standings can be found here. (You need to login to view the lists I believe)
http://downunderpairings.com/Tournament.php?TournamentID=482

I personally took Knights and Guard to the event. Got smashed game 1 and game 5 thanks to BobbyG and a Castellan and then Haywire talos spam and Harlie bikes. I just couldn’t kill the Talos fast enough (thank god the very strong rumour is they are getting a big points hike).

So, based off that event anyway, massively stacking negative to hits army wide doesn’t appear to be an auto-win. Biggest issue I think is more to do with Doom letting everyone re-roll and 2-3 Talos man units being practically impossible to remove effectively or quickly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addition to say - This event used all the new faq stuff as well.

Ah yes, a sample size of 1. Clearly representative.

A single anecdote doesn't prove anything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really is only Guard players complaining about it.

And anyone with 5+ bs.

Which is what? Orks which can't go beyond 6 anyway and get an extra chance at a shot? Conscripts which were already too effective at 3 points?

Get over it.

a) orks still get screwed by -1 to hit. You don't even need to go beyond 6 to be screwed. Learn some basic math if you don't see why
b) conscript cost 4pts
c) there's still units with 5+ beyond those two. Maybe read codexes one day? Then you might actually be correct once in a while.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ah yes, a sample size of 1. Clearly representative.

A single anecdote doesn't prove anything.

Whilst a single event, using the new rules, it does get the ball rolling and does tie in with results from previous events as well. We can also look at the results of the Battle for Salvation as well. We can see from the top 16 lists there was a total of 3 units in the winning list having an in-built negative to hit. In 5th we have 1 detachment of Alaitoc Eldar and 1 Druarki flyer. In 9th we have 1 Alaitoc battalion and Alaitoc flyer detachment (first army to have full negative to hits). 11th place we have Venomthropes.

So, currently, we can see from the trend of 2 events (both different styles) but both containing top players (The event I was at had the Dutch ETC team in attendance, some of the Finish team, some of the players from the UK teams and then other top non ETC players).
But, I guess we will see what happens this weekend at the SoCal open as to whether or not full, stacking, negative to hit modifier armies dominate everything else, or whether the trend to continues to be Ynnari (with some individual units with –‘s to hit), Imperium soup and Chaos soup being top of the pile.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really is only Guard players complaining about it.

And anyone with 5+ bs.

Which is what? Orks which can't go beyond 6 anyway and get an extra chance at a shot? Conscripts which were already too effective at 3 points?

Get over it.

a) orks still get screwed by -1 to hit. You don't even need to go beyond 6 to be screwed. Learn some basic math if you don't see why
b) conscript cost 4pts
c) there's still units with 5+ beyond those two. Maybe read codexes one day? Then you might actually be correct once in a while.

1. EVERYONE gets hit by a -1 to hit. Orks are now the army to ignore stacking, which makes them effective.
2. Everyone already knows Conscripts are gonna go down a point in Chapter Approved.
3. You didn't even bother to name other units which makes this part pretty funny.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Everyone already knows Conscripts are gonna go down a point in Chapter Approved.

[Citation Needed]

If anything Infantry Squads will go up to 5ppm

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really is only Guard players complaining about it.

And anyone with 5+ bs.

Which is what? Orks which can't go beyond 6 anyway and get an extra chance at a shot? Conscripts which were already too effective at 3 points?

Get over it.

a) orks still get screwed by -1 to hit. You don't even need to go beyond 6 to be screwed. Learn some basic math if you don't see why
b) conscript cost 4pts
c) there's still units with 5+ beyond those two. Maybe read codexes one day? Then you might actually be correct once in a while.

1. EVERYONE gets hit by a -1 to hit. Orks are now the army to ignore stacking, which makes them effective.
2. Everyone already knows Conscripts are gonna go down a point in Chapter Approved.
3. You didn't even bother to name other units which makes this part pretty funny.

What about any faction that can't easily circumvent their bs 4+, that includes nids for exemple. Or even Tau to a degree.
Btw 5+ is average troop stats in renegade and heretics armies. With mutants, militia, militia Hwt suffering from it. Mind you unlike orks however renegades are not designated as a melee army.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Everyone already knows Conscripts are gonna go down a point in Chapter Approved.

[Citation Needed]

If anything Infantry Squads will go up to 5ppm

Nobody is taking them at 4 points. So they'll go down. Simple as that. It was easily the biggest complaint of CA17.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really is only Guard players complaining about it.

And anyone with 5+ bs.

Which is what? Orks which can't go beyond 6 anyway and get an extra chance at a shot? Conscripts which were already too effective at 3 points?

Get over it.

a) orks still get screwed by -1 to hit. You don't even need to go beyond 6 to be screwed. Learn some basic math if you don't see why
b) conscript cost 4pts
c) there's still units with 5+ beyond those two. Maybe read codexes one day? Then you might actually be correct once in a while.

1. EVERYONE gets hit by a -1 to hit. Orks are now the army to ignore stacking, which makes them effective.
2. Everyone already knows Conscripts are gonna go down a point in Chapter Approved.
3. You didn't even bother to name other units which makes this part pretty funny.

What about any faction that can't easily circumvent their bs 4+, that includes nids for exemple. Or even Tau to a degree.
Btw 5+ is average troop stats in renegade and heretics armies. With mutants, militia, militia Hwt suffering from it. Mind you unlike orks however renegades are not designated as a melee army.

Tau get over it easily, and Tyranids have mostly units designed to get close anyway. Only Renegades have an argument here, and you can't seriously say they aren't in desperate need of fixing even without these armies existing.

Not Online!!! wrote:


What about any faction that can't easily circumvent their bs 4+, that includes nids for exemple. Or even Tau to a degree.

Tau are in the best state they've been yet this edition, they do NOT need the one defensive mechanic turned to cover, which they can then ignore with markerlights. That's absurd.

And getting rid of it would NERF Nids. Nids rely on -1 sources like Thropes, Horror, and Hypnosis, to get an almost exclusively close range army across the board. As a Nid main do NOT try to sell your want for this change as if you are doing us favors, our -1 is in no way OP yet you want it gone rather than adapting your own play.

Almost every single army in the game has a way to deal with it, whether through overwhelming firepower that the mechanic in fact helps to offset, or through a focus on other strengths that get around it.

People wanting this mechanic gone are the epitome of what the 40k community has become, just whining till GW for implement an easy mode to their multiplayer game. There's really balance issues out there and this mechanic EXISTING isn't one of them. Focus on the individual instances where it's too much, if you have an issue.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


What about any faction that can't easily circumvent their bs 4+, that includes nids for exemple. Or even Tau to a degree.

Tau are in the best state they've been yet this edition, they do NOT need the one defensive mechanic turned to cover, which they can then ignore with markerlights. That's absurd.

And getting rid of it would NERF Nids. Nids rely on -1 sources like Thropes, Horror, and Hypnosis, to get an almost exclusively close range army across the board. As a Nid main do NOT try to sell your want for this change as if you are doing us favors, our -1 is in no way OP yet you want it gone rather than adapting your own play.

Almost every single army in the game has a way to deal with it, whether through overwhelming firepower that the mechanic in fact helps to offset, or through a focus on other strengths that get around it.

People wanting this mechanic gone are the epitome of what the 40k community has become, just whining till GW for implement an easy mode to their multiplayer game. There's really balance issues out there and this mechanic EXISTING isn't one of them. Focus on the individual instances where it's too much, if you have an issue.

First off: nice ad hominem against a opinion you disagree with. Shows about the level of discurse you are capable off.

Secondly: so you would rather relly upon a terrible mechanic like -1 modifiers? Instead of getting propperly working units?

Thirdly i did not complain about Nid sources of -1 since they are one unit at a instance. Making counterplay something that is achievable, not to mention you pay pts for it, unlike certain faction traits. Contrary to that army traits like alaitoc, alpha legion and ravenguard which by virtue of just existing do harm to the internal balance of a codex, not to mention issues in the overall balance afterwards thanks to soup.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


What about any faction that can't easily circumvent their bs 4+, that includes nids for exemple. Or even Tau to a degree.

Tau are in the best state they've been yet this edition, they do NOT need the one defensive mechanic turned to cover, which they can then ignore with markerlights. That's absurd.

And getting rid of it would NERF Nids. Nids rely on -1 sources like Thropes, Horror, and Hypnosis, to get an almost exclusively close range army across the board. As a Nid main do NOT try to sell your want for this change as if you are doing us favors, our -1 is in no way OP yet you want it gone rather than adapting your own play.

Almost every single army in the game has a way to deal with it, whether through overwhelming firepower that the mechanic in fact helps to offset, or through a focus on other strengths that get around it.

People wanting this mechanic gone are the epitome of what the 40k community has become, just whining till GW for implement an easy mode to their multiplayer game. There's really balance issues out there and this mechanic EXISTING isn't one of them. Focus on the individual instances where it's too much, if you have an issue.

First off: nice ad hominem against a opinion you disagree with. Shows about the level of discurse you are capable off.

Secondly: so you would rather relly upon a terrible mechanic like -1 modifiers? Instead of getting propperly working units?

Thirdly i did not complain about Nid sources of -1 since they are one unit at a instance. Making counterplay something that is achievable, not to mention you pay pts for it, unlike certain faction traits. Contrary to that army traits like alaitoc, alpha legion and ravenguard which by virtue of just existing do harm to the internal balance of a codex, not to mention issues in the overall balance afterwards thanks to soup.

First off, thats really not an ad hominem, I quite clearly attacked your argument and expressed my dislike of it

Secondly, I don't think -1 modifiers are a terrible mechanic at all, and you saying it doesn't make it so, and I countered your only reasoning for why it was. I think it's a perfectly fine defensive mechanic, and a community largely used to winning shooting matches is struggling to accept that.

Thirdly, you are both wrong about Nids (Malanthrope affects everything in a bubble, can stack with -1 to hit relic, and cast 2 separate -1 powers on a single enemy unit too), wrong about Alpha Legion / Ravenguard (watch them do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the tournament scene after the recent nerf), and wrong that you weren't complaining about Nids - as you are NOT asking for a change to individual instances, you are asking for them ALL to be blanket changed, and that includes Nids. And other instances of it that aren't OP. The game needs the mechanic now more than ever. Improve your list own play. Shooting is not weak in 8th loool

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Another reason not to cap the -ve modifiers is that it basically removes the effect of the Chapter Tactic for units that have them already built in.

Take Alaitoc Rangers for example. Capping -ve modifiers at -1 would essentially mean that Rangers, Alaitocs flagship/famous-for unit, gain zero benefit from even being ALAITOC.

Which is why you shouldn't cap at -1 only, but capping at -2 still allows for 2 different things to interact, such as the army trait, unit ability and shooting unit using Heavy weapons.
And that's really all that is needed: A cap that still allows at least 2 abilities to interact.

-

-2 is already enough to cripple any army other then Custodes (since they are the only ones with army wide 2+)

And that's a problem why? If you want to counter such potential measures, start bringing in stuff to shoot close or melee stuff.

I agree it should be a max of -2, but it's a healthy trait for the game that's really only complained about by gunline people.

Besides of that, I believe that to hit roll penalties never should drop further than 6+ (maybe 5+?) a hit roll. There is already armies that hit a 5+ and other ones that have a trollistic capacity to stack -1 to hit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody is taking them at 4 points. So they'll go down. Simple as that. It was easily the biggest complaint of CA17.

You've omitted an important caveat there. Nobody is taking them at 4 points... BECAUSE THE STRICTLY BETTER INFANTRY SQUAD IS ALSO 4 POINTS.

Once Infantry Squads go up to 5ppm, people might use Conscripts again.

People wanting this mechanic gone are the epitome of what the 40k community has become, just whining till GW for implement an easy mode to their multiplayer game. There's really balance issues out there and this mechanic EXISTING isn't one of them. Focus on the individual instances where it's too much, if you have an issue.

@shuppet. Ad hominem, personal attack. In this case directed at multiple people because it fits your narrative. So yes you used an ad hominem which you tried to justfy behind supposed missmanagement of army list certain players make. Dissmising any argument you don't like that way. Btw called a Totschlag argument.

Secondly: They are. Simply put you pay pts for a unit with an expected average behaviour dependant on it's stats. Possibly you also spend pts according to the strength / power of a weapon you buy. This trait alone breaks this balance approach since it, depending on your BS, makes you lose effectiveness.

Thirdly: I meant individual instances as in you don't get a blanket -1 trait, you need to pay pts for them unlike certain traits. Nids need to buy it and don't get it for free. That is why i don't mind nids but i could have formualted that one better, i'll concede that.

Fourth: Just because AL and RG do not accomplish much now after their stratagem nerf,does not mean that the Trait is not inherently better then any alternative trait in the respective Codex. It limits design space and that is my gripe with it.

Fifth: Balancing alone from a tournament aspect, we should remove any and all soup aswell as Castellans, etc. especially if we only consider top 5-10 lists as relevant. Ergo instead of balancing torwards the middle you just nerf the top outliers, doing nothing for the things stuck at the low end.

Edit: To clarify, i am not against the -1 modifyer perse, but i am against army wide traits that are this way, simply put i am fine so long you pay pts for it instead of getting it handed out, ergo i am fine with the Nid way to get -1s. However i don't like trait's i can't play around except getting into doubletap range, which against these armies will mean 2 shooting phases of no reaction aginst them. I am also not argueing that shooting is not superior to melee. However i'd rather see Melee units buffed to a point that they can make it into it and or that transports, especially groungbound ones, get a boost as to be able to get within the range.

I didn't think it was ad hominem at all, just a description of the attitude I dislike in the community. But whatever let's move past it.

It breaks balance no more than T8 breaks the balance of S7 weaponry. It lowers the effectiveness of your shooting, this is the impact it's INTENDED to have. This is a perfectly apt mechanic by my measure, in a game still dominated by shooting even WITH it's presence.

Alpha Legion may have the best trait but they are one of the worser legions now, because a faction choice is so much more than that. IW and Black Legion are going to see play and Alpha Legion... never will again lol.

Honestly I'm not against an update to Alpha Legion they don't really reflect their flavor at all on the tabletop, but just nerfing them further is a terrible answer.

Also, are you saying just remove -1 army rules, but leave other instances that you have to pay for? Like Malanthrope for example would be okay, where do you stand on powers, since you have to buy the caster does that include?

I edited the above comment but for simplicities sake:

Also, are you saying just remove -1 army rules, but leave other instances that you have to pay for? Like Malanthrope for example would be okay, where do you stand on powers, since you have to buy the caster does that include?

I am fine with most of those powers. I am perfectly fine with the malanthope (we can debate about the range of his aura, the ammount of times he can give out -1 etc. but again at this point that would be hairsplitting and we have bigger fish to fry balance wise atm).
I am not fine with certain powers that need to pass and then affect whole armies (doom).
Another exemple is miasma of pestilence, which i find fine since A: both units need nurgle heretic astarte keywords and B : it is single target one use per caster which you pay for with pts and a "slot " for a spell.