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Asmodios wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I've seen exceptional 3D prints of minis where it was very hard to tell the difference from an authentic model. You had to look really closely for surface-level imperfections that couldn't be explained by cutting it off a sprue.

Sure, but how much did that print cost, whether buying from a service or as a share of the cost of buying and using a high-end printer? What about once you add in the labor cost of working with a high-end printer of your own? I bet it doesn't compare very favorably to the GW plastic kit. Those high-end printers are great for prototypes (anyone remember when 3d printed was called "rapid prototyping"?) or masters for conventional casting but they're useless if your goal is to get the costs of the hobby down.

it may not satisfy you refined pallet, but estimated print costs for a 28mm mini is 3-6 cents per mini for FDM (lower quality generally) or $0.15-$1.80 for resin (generally high quality) per mini. even if he's off by a factor of 5, making it $0.15- $9.00 per mini, as long as you print a fair number of models, or stuff like terminators ($12/each per gw website) it won't take you that long to pay it off. And for people getting started on an army, its not likely they'd build up an army faster than they could print it anyway

source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v04wjiUT5Qg

He's not talking about just the cost of materials he's talking about
materials+printer+opertunity cost
opportunity cost here is the time it would take to master 3D printing. From the research, I've done online (the idea of printing seems really fun so I've looked into it) it looks fairly time-consuming. let's say it takes 500 hours to really master it and for quick math lets say I make $20 an hour. That 500 hours it takes to really start printing whatever I wanted is actually $10000+cost of all the materials used while learning+cost of the printer. Now that "cheap army" is actually costing an astronomical amount. Now as the technology advances and the learning curve gets smaller the opportunity cost will drop. This is when GW will really have to worry about 3D printing

Right, but how long does it take to master putting together models, cleaning mold lines and painting to any fair degree.. its a hobby, something you chose to spend quite a bit of your time to do. And you can print overnight, at work, etc. Its part of the appeal, to fill up the time. And you wouldn't do it instead of work, so you aren't sacrificing $20 to do it, you are doing it instead of nothing otherwise, or other actives. If you would work a 2nd job instead of the hobby, well you are probably already doing that, and not doing much 40k anyway, and are not the target audience.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it's not worth it to you, I understand. It's reasonable per the free-market that you pay gw for their expertise in modeling, and ease of acquisition. But when you have free access to a 3d printer via your local library, or intend to do a significant number of models, of various armies even, it becomes cost productive to do so. And especially if you are even moderate at reading forums for recommended settings to save 200 hrs of getting better at the hobby from other peoples hard work.

Yeah If we're including oppertunity cost we're going to have to throw in shipping time, time spent cleaning sprews, greenstuff sculpting and washing miniatures. Which you will NEED to do if you're building forgeworld.

No. It does not take 500+ hours to master 3d printing. You can do some amazing stuff right off the bat with the ender 3. It might take you more like 10-15 hours to get the machine SUPER well tuned but if that's lost cost for you go ahead and spend the extra $300 on an anycubic photon which is as Yodhrin stated is basically plug and play.

In the end though this is a hobby and if you're going to count modeling time as cost lost then a box of tac marines must set you back hundreds.

Yeah honestly the opportunity cost is entirely a part of the hobby.

how is learning 3d printing any different from learning how to paint, or sculpt, or even playing the game.

as for the "toxic" nature of resin it really depends. a lot of the light cured resins are skin irritants, and from what i understand of the process you wash them in iso alcohol which is also a an irritant. at best put on gloves, a respirator if you feel it necessary and set it up some where you are not going to eat sleep or drink near. about the same as a dedicated painting area and near the same cost as an airbrushing station with similar risk depending on the type of paint you use.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I've seen exceptional 3D prints of minis where it was very hard to tell the difference from an authentic model. You had to look really closely for surface-level imperfections that couldn't be explained by cutting it off a sprue.

Sure, but how much did that print cost, whether buying from a service or as a share of the cost of buying and using a high-end printer? What about once you add in the labor cost of working with a high-end printer of your own? I bet it doesn't compare very favorably to the GW plastic kit. Those high-end printers are great for prototypes (anyone remember when 3d printed was called "rapid prototyping"?) or masters for conventional casting but they're useless if your goal is to get the costs of the hobby down.

it may not satisfy you refined pallet, but estimated print costs for a 28mm mini is 3-6 cents per mini for FDM (lower quality generally) or $0.15-$1.80 for resin (generally high quality) per mini. even if he's off by a factor of 5, making it $0.15- $9.00 per mini, as long as you print a fair number of models, or stuff like terminators ($12/each per gw website) it won't take you that long to pay it off. And for people getting started on an army, its not likely they'd build up an army faster than they could print it anyway

source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v04wjiUT5Qg

He's not talking about just the cost of materials he's talking about
materials+printer+opertunity cost
opportunity cost here is the time it would take to master 3D printing. From the research, I've done online (the idea of printing seems really fun so I've looked into it) it looks fairly time-consuming. let's say it takes 500 hours to really master it and for quick math lets say I make $20 an hour. That 500 hours it takes to really start printing whatever I wanted is actually $10000+cost of all the materials used while learning+cost of the printer. Now that "cheap army" is actually costing an astronomical amount. Now as the technology advances and the learning curve gets smaller the opportunity cost will drop. This is when GW will really have to worry about 3D printing

Right, but how long does it take to master putting together models, cleaning mold lines and painting to any fair degree.. its a hobby, something you chose to spend quite a bit of your time to do. And you can print overnight, at work, etc. Its part of the appeal, to fill up the time. And you wouldn't do it instead of work, so you aren't sacrificing $20 to do it, you are doing it instead of nothing otherwise, or other actives. If you would work a 2nd job instead of the hobby, well you are probably already doing that, and not doing much 40k anyway, and are not the target audience.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it's not worth it to you, I understand. It's reasonable per the free-market that you pay gw for their expertise in modeling, and ease of acquisition. But when you have free access to a 3d printer via your local library, or intend to do a significant number of models, of various armies even, it becomes cost productive to do so. And especially if you are even moderate at reading forums for recommended settings to save 200 hrs of getting better at the hobby from other peoples hard work.

The time I spend painting/ cleaning models currently is in my free time watching TV and relaxing. The level of enjoyment I receive makes the opportunity cost quiet small because you would have to pay me far over my average earnings per hour to give up that time. While 3D printing looks fun after researching it a bit it seems like a nightmare (now this is the personal part of opportunity cost so your mileage may vary). Troubleshooting a printer for 2 weeks and having to constantly clean out a machine and read threads to try to figure out plastic types/supports/temperatures/layer heights/ect seems miserable. Some people love that stuff and that makes 3D printing currently an obvious choice for them. For me personally (and if i had to take a bet id guess the majority of people) buying a mini you like and painting it us is much more enjoyable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah honestly the opportunity cost is entirely a part of the hobby.

how is learning 3d printing any different from learning how to paint, or sculpt, or even playing the game.

as for the "toxic" nature of resin it really depends. a lot of the light cured resins are skin irritants, and from what i understand of the process you wash them in iso alcohol which is also a an irritant. at best put on gloves, a respirator if you feel it necessary and set it up some where you are not going to eat sleep or drink near. about the same as a dedicated painting area and near the same cost as an airbrushing station with similar risk depending on the type of paint you use.

It's different because i enjoy painting/ modeling... if I didn't I would simply work more and buy models. Its the same reason I pay someone to mow my lawn and my father whos much wealthier doesn't. He loves landscaping I don't so I'm giving up valuable leisure time while he isn't.... it is his leisure. constantly messing with printer settings and learning 3D software doesn't appeal to me but painting/ modeling doesn't. My leisure time is very valuable to me.... trying to get a printer to print what I want isn't.

If your are going to assign an astronomical cost to trying something new there's not really anything I can do to convince you.
Despite what people who do this regularly are telling you, if you are convinced this would take weeks of agony to even attempt so be it.

For the rest of us though in the last year two printers have been released that make a lot of really cool stuff possible.
The Photon which is almost a plug and play machine able to spit out fantastic quality models for $500 and the Ender 3 which can do gorgeous vehicles and larger minis with a little tweaking.
The quality is solid, the entrance price is low. I wouldn't be so quick to drop the "majority" of hobbyists into this category you've built.

 MattKing wrote:
If your are going to assign an astronomical cost to trying something new there's not really anything I can do to convince you.
Despite what people who do this regularly are telling you, if you are convinced this would take weeks of agony to even attempt so be it.

For the rest of us though in the last year two printers have been released that make a lot of really cool stuff possible.
The Photon which is almost a plug and play machine able to spit out fantastic quality models for $500 and the Ender 3 which can do gorgeous vehicles and larger minis with a little tweaking.
The quality is solid, the entrance price is low. I wouldn't be so quick to drop the "majority" of hobbyists into this category you've built.

I said in this thread im going to spend some time tonight researching this printer you have brought up and ill put on some youtube videos while painting. Maybe it will be simple enough where it makes sense to me. I'm talking about personally from the research I did early this year because I like the idea of 3D printing. Unfortunately, the more research I did the more I went "yeah this is most likely gonna be a waste of time and money". I hope your right that this printer is truly plug and play because I've looked up tons of terrain pieces that id love to just print. I don't mind a bit of tinkering but when i really looked into this probably around January-April it just didn't seem worth it at all

I have to say I wasn't expecting to generate this large of a discussion with this post, and I'm glad people are talking about this. I think 3D printing can have some really interesting applications for this hobby, and I'm enjoying reading about how people are using this technology.

I'l also admit that I had a bit of an ulterior motive in bringing it up — I recently purchased a 3D printer and was wondering what the general consensus was on them, and it seems that terrain is considered a pretty acceptable use for them on all grounds.

It provides a fun and cost effective way to cover a home gaming table in terrain, but doesn't step on GW or other model company's toes too much because they still have the edge in quality, and a lot of their designs are truly impressive (and large enough that 3D printing something like them would be hard with most printers). Just because I have a 3D printer doesn't mean I won't buy GW kits.

Also for what it's worth in terms of the "is it efficient?" debate, I have a monoprice select mini which is just under $300 CAD and has been on sale for as low as $200 CAD (~$150 USD). While it would not in any way be an ideal printer to print proxy infantry models or the like (and that brings up a whole other ethical/legal debate) it has proved to be more than passable for printing up terrain pieces, and there are a lot of very cool designs out there that people have volunteered their time to create for people to use for free. I think it's fair to say that this is no different, ethically, than making your own terrain from materials from an art supply store, it's just an effective way to do so. With a bit of paint, flock, basing materials, etc. you can make printed pieces into very impressive terrain. Definitely takes effort, but not too much effort, and it opens up certain possibilities that simply weren't there before.

I'll also add that I'm not a technology buff, but with a few tips from an engineer friend of mine I was printing in no time.

The quickest and easiest way to remove the print layer lines from a printed model is to put it in a Ziploc with something that's been soaked with nail polish remover. The acetone in the nail polish remover will slowly melt the plastic smooth. Just keep an eye on it and when it looks right, take it out of the bag.

I've got a couple of 3d prints in my gallery I made while I was testing printer settings. There's a landraider, rhino and a terminator with assault cannon. Although my photography skills suck

Thoughts on 3d printed OOP models?

Darkmind wrote:
Thoughts on 3d printed OOP models?

I'm fine with it. There won't be much in that category in a few years as GW has already begun to purge it's model line and anything OOP will be quietly retired.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Darkmind wrote:
Thoughts on 3d printed OOP models?

I'm fine with it. There won't be much in that category in a few years as GW has already begun to purge it's model line and anything OOP will be quietly retired.

Pretty much how I feel about it. I'm resin casting 5th edition night goblins for my 40k Ork gretchin. The pickens are getting thin on ebay and the current NG models are the single pose and very tuff to convert.

Darkmind wrote:
Thoughts on 3d printed OOP models?

OOP, In-Print, purchased files, original scupts, whatever - unless your stuff look like crap & you're trying to field it on my local shops tables I don't care.

I don't see how it's supposedly easy to 3D print stuff.

Take a look at Subtle Discord's thread, he went to school for all that kind of stuff and had solid experience with CAD before he got his 3D printer and he has still spent months, if not longer, tinkering with various parts of the process to get acceptable results.

There's no way an uneducated oaf like me could acquire a version of Solus and be printing out my own stuff in minutes.

I probably couldn't do it if I had years to spend on it.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I don't see how it's supposedly easy to 3D print stuff.

Take a look at Subtle Discord's thread, he went to school for all that kind of stuff and had solid experience with CAD before he got his 3D printer and he has still spent months, if not longer, tinkering with various parts of the process to get acceptable results.

There's no way an uneducated oaf like me could acquire a version of Solus and be printing out my own stuff in minutes.

I probably couldn't do it if I had years to spend on it.

As someone who operated & managed a 3d print shop, learning to 3d model is one thing, learning to tailor your 3d model to your machine is a whole another game.

One 3d model that printed well on one machine doesn't necessarily guarantee the same quality on a different machine, even if they're identical model.

3d printing is not an easybake miniature oven - more the reason why 3d printing should not be something frowned upon as a "miniature copier".

There's a lot of process involved in getting what you want out of a 3d printer.

I love mine, I use it for bits that there never seem to be enough of.
Free hanging or sheathed weapons, Bolters, Chainswords ect.
Those guns that you want a whole unit to carry but the box always comes with just one.
Embossed emblems.
The cooler looking trinkets.

Other than that I use it for kit-bashing.

With the 15% off ebay thing i just nabbed a anycubic photon today for about tree fithy

cant wait for it to come in to stumble through the next months.

When I picked up my 3d printer I was thinking "Great, now I can Print my whole army and have all those cool units I've not been able to get yet."
Someone on renderosity has been making a whole ton of free 40k 3d models for poser/daz studio so they can be equipped and posed however I want, exported as an object and sent to my slicer.
After getting my settings at a decent print and printing a terminator and a couple tanks, I decided it would be much cooler to make dead models for everything in my current army to replace the ones that die on the battlefield.

I got to get all my scenery printed first though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I got my Ender 3 last week. I'm waiting for a USBasp so I can flash a bootloader and install better firmware on it, that's a couple of quid and a ten minute "follow along" youtube tutorial. Once that's done, I'll be replacing the bed springs with solid Nylon risers, at which point I can run a sequence to manually calibrate a feature called Mesh Bed Levelling and likely never have to adjust the bed again, that's another couple of quid and ten minute YT tutorial. I can download a ready-made Cura profile specially made for slicing tabletop miniatures, do a couple of test prints to dial in the specific little niggles of the filament I bought, which is pennies and an hour or so of printing time, and that's it, I should be able to run off pretty damn nice models for anything Centurion size or above. Swapping out the nozzle for a 0.2mm one instead of the default 0.4 and doing a bit more tweaking(another couple of hours and a few pennies) and I should be able to match MattKing's Terminators there. Even now, I can already produce reasonable parts that could look great with some post processing work using the absolutely stock-standard model and with zero prior experience.

This is kind of proving the point. It's just "out of the box", except for needing to install different firmware, replace mechanical components, calibrate everything, and still doing processing work on the finished print. And this just gets you a print that is decent, but still has print lines and poor quality in places. And how good is the durability going to be? Previous high-detail prints I've seen were also very fragile and not really suited to game use. In short: yeah, it's better than it used to be, but it's still not perfect.

Now contrast this with the work to get the real kit: go to gamesworkshop.com, click "buy", and wait for USPS to deliver it.

Grab something like the Photon and you don't have to do any of that - put resin in the vat, run the slicer, print the model, stick it under a UV nail lamp for a few minutes, done.

IOW "work with toxic chemicals that require a lot of cleanup and storage care". It's like saying recasting your own miniatures is easy, just pour some resin in a mold and let it sit a while to cure. There's a reason why people keep buying multiple copies of GW kits despite recasting your own models being a lot cheaper.

You're behind the times.