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 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

All the nid changes make sense except the HVC and VC buffs. Those weapons were already worth their points IMO.

Tyrano / Toxicrine / Exocrine / Swarmy all seem to be in the playable area now. So Nidzilla is looking pretty good now. The only core build to get stronger is carnifex spam and not by much - really just by a total amount that barely covers the 90 point neuro.

Not really, they are 4+ to hit on most things and dont get much re-rolls, we need a Warrior Prime and a Trait just to get 3-4 VC to be repayable, and then its still not really viable as Knights meta kills warriors. And B.c the Warrior Prime is all but useless (if he could have a HVC and Wings then i would recant this), he is to costly for a terrible pseudo captain. Even with the points drop he is bad b.c he only gets basic weapons, imagine a Captain that cant get TH or SS and can only get PS and 1 Assault bolter with No jump pack.

HVC no one takes, everyone takes Dev, a few players taking 1 or 2 doesnt make them popular, again, they are on 4+ to hit units (fex's) that you pay 10pts more to make them 3+. Then you have the Tyrant, b.c it can get up close fast enough no one takes HVC', specially when you can take Devs+melee and do more damage. But most opt for 2Devs, especially b.c they cant get re-rolls on the HVC.

I like HVC and i think they are good, but looking as an army as a whole, late of repayable hits makes them over costed.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

All the nid changes make sense except the HVC and VC buffs. Those weapons were already worth their points IMO.

Tyrano / Toxicrine / Exocrine / Swarmy all seem to be in the playable area now. So Nidzilla is looking pretty good now. The only core build to get stronger is carnifex spam and not by much - really just by a total amount that barely covers the 90 point neuro.

Not really, they are 4+ to hit on most things and dont get much re-rolls, we need a Warrior Prime and a Trait just to get 3-4 VC to be repayable, and then its still not really viable as Knights meta kills warriors. And B.c the Warrior Prime is all but useless (if he could have a HVC and Wings then i would recant this), he is to costly for a terrible pseudo captain. Even with the points drop he is bad b.c he only gets basic weapons, imagine a Captain that cant get TH or SS and can only get PS and 1 Assault bolter with No jump pack.

HVC no one takes, everyone takes Dev, a few players taking 1 or 2 doesnt make them popular, again, they are on 4+ to hit units (fex's) that you pay 10pts more to make them 3+. Then you have the Tyrant, b.c it can get up close fast enough no one takes HVC', specially when you can take Devs+melee and do more damage. But most opt for 2Devs, especially b.c they cant get re-rolls on the HVC.

I like HVC and i think they are good, but looking as an army as a whole, late of repayable hits makes them over costed.

You thought the 25 point HVC Assault D3 36" range Str 9 ap-2 Flat 3 damage
Is Over-costed compared to 25 point Heavy 1 Str 9 ap-3 d6 damage
???
If that weapon is 18 points a LC is worth 10.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

All the nid changes make sense except the HVC and VC buffs. Those weapons were already worth their points IMO.

Tyrano / Toxicrine / Exocrine / Swarmy all seem to be in the playable area now. So Nidzilla is looking pretty good now. The only core build to get stronger is carnifex spam and not by much - really just by a total amount that barely covers the 90 point neuro.

Not really, they are 4+ to hit on most things and dont get much re-rolls, we need a Warrior Prime and a Trait just to get 3-4 VC to be repayable, and then its still not really viable as Knights meta kills warriors. And B.c the Warrior Prime is all but useless (if he could have a HVC and Wings then i would recant this), he is to costly for a terrible pseudo captain. Even with the points drop he is bad b.c he only gets basic weapons, imagine a Captain that cant get TH or SS and can only get PS and 1 Assault bolter with No jump pack.

HVC no one takes, everyone takes Dev, a few players taking 1 or 2 doesnt make them popular, again, they are on 4+ to hit units (fex's) that you pay 10pts more to make them 3+. Then you have the Tyrant, b.c it can get up close fast enough no one takes HVC', specially when you can take Devs+melee and do more damage. But most opt for 2Devs, especially b.c they cant get re-rolls on the HVC.

I like HVC and i think they are good, but looking as an army as a whole, late of repayable hits makes them over costed.

You thought the 25 point HVC Assault D3 36" range Str 9 ap-2 Flat 3 damage
Is Over-costed compared to 25 point Heavy 1 Str 9 ap-3 d6 damage
???
If that weapon is 18 points a LC is worth 10.

Your joking right? You didnt read at all did you?

1 Is on a 3+ model with HQ's to give re-rolls, the other is on 4+ to hit that needs its traits and not move for re-roll 1, needs an HQ or an addition 10pts just to get to BS 3+, when on a Fex its not 25pts, its 35pts b.c you will always pay for the +1 BS to make it a 3+, and then you dont get re-rolls unless you are Kronos and you dont move. There is no HQ to buff shooting, there is no HQ to re-roll wounds, hits, etc..

Then you have the Harpy, when was the last time you saw a Harpy? Even if they go down 30pts, they still wont have HVC's, as it is BS4+ and the StC going down in price is the better option on a bad shooting unit, The Harpy is only getting 2 Hits on 2D3 shots, thats bad. Your paying 50pts for 2 Hits... hmm.... for the Same points (currently) Armigers are literally 200% better (at shooting) Predators are better, etc.. And it needs Synapse, its low T, 4+ to save, Flyer with no -1 to hit.


We are paying 35pts for a 3+ with 0 re-rolls
You are paying 25pts for 3+ with all re-rolls


You have to look at it in the context of all the rules. This is why no one takes them.


So tell me again why they are so good?

Why are you including the cost of +1 to hit upgrade in the cost of the weapon - that is not how it works. Plus the plus 1 to hit is going to be buffing 2 weapons - not 1. You can't look at it that way - just consider that 10 point upgrade part of the carnifex base cost. BS on a model buffs all weapons on a model - it can't be part of the weapons cost.

Plus it's 25 points on a hive tyrant too and hes got BS 3+.
Plus you can get reroll 1's in kronos or from a malanthrope.
Plus - armies pay for their buff auras.

Even ignoring all the sense I just made. A BS 4+ HVC is superior to a lascannon with reroll all hits. They costed the same. The superior weapon went down in price.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why are you including the cost of +1 to hit upgrade in the cost of the weapon - that is not how it works. Plus the plus 1 to hit is going to be buffing 2 weapons - not 1. You can't look at it that way - just consider that 10 point upgrade part of the carnifex base cost. BS on a model buffs all weapons on a model - it can't be part of the weapons cost.

Plus it's 25 points on a hive tyrant too and hes got BS 3+.
Plus you can get reroll 1's in kronos or from a malanthrope.
Plus - armies pay for their buff auras.

Even ignoring all the sense I just made. A BS 4+ HVC is superior to a lascannon with reroll all hits. They costed the same. The superior weapon went down in price.

You dont re-roll from Malanthrope.. .... Unless you are talking about IF the Malanthrope kills something in Melee... LOL i would LOVE to see you do that, with 50+ games playing with the Malanthrope i have never had that happen, with the 4 players i personal know that also play with it hasnt done it yet either......

I hope you were not playing the Malanthrope with Re-rolls......

Its akin to telling someone "Why not play the lottery and win? no big deal"

The only reason Venom Cannon's weren't taken in more is because you can't take a squad of 5 like you can with Lascannons, you get 1 per an MC body, and there is an opportunity cost associated with that as it means you miss out on 1 set of devourers but still have to take 1 set for the other guns, and that leaves the unit kinda running messy. That being said, Xenomancers is right, players who did do stuff like spamming Carnifexes with Venom Cannons saw great success with it. I don't think the Venom Cannon was overcosted at all. I don't think it makes the race much stronger outside of that one build, but Xenomancers already said that.

It also doesn't make any sense to include the Enhanced Senses upgrade as part of the cost of the gun. You're paying about 10 pts for a head upgrade whether you take Devourers, Deathspitters, Venom Cannons, or even any of the melee load outs. That is not a cost associated with the gun, and at the very least, seems hypocritical to factor in that cost to the price of the Venom Cannon while dictating that the Lascannons get full re-rolls to everything but not factoring in the cost of that, or factoring in the cost that SM models pay for their 3+ as well.

Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics' GK force that won that fun n fluff tournament 5-0 was based around draigo, a gmdk, 3x10 interceptors and 3 TLC ven dreads I seem to recall. That must have taken a cut in the region of 300pts. Seems like a viable place to start, if I were trying to build a useable GK force post CA. Not that I'm saying they're competitive, of course not: neither is Lawrence! Just that, having watched a few batreps with it in play, it's a very interesting playstyle.

 grouchoben wrote:
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics' GK force that won that fun n fluff tournament 5-0 was based around draigo, a gmdk, 3x10 interceptors and 3 TLC ven dreads I seem to recall.

Gives you outrider and spearhead detachments but no battalion.
But an interesting list anyway.

 grouchoben wrote:
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics' GK force that won that fun n fluff tournament 5-0 was based around draigo, a gmdk, 3x10 interceptors and 3 TLC ven dreads I seem to recall. That must have taken a cut in the region of 300pts. Seems like a viable place to start, if I were trying to build a useable GK force post CA. Not that I'm saying they're competitive, of course not: neither is Lawrence! Just that, having watched a few batreps with it in play, it's a very interesting playstyle.

Doesnt that tournament have like a wierd set of rules? like it is not 2000pts, only monofactions, highlander , no FW, no LoW and they use ITC missions, which few people use outside of UK as far as europe goes. Plus he should be playing a battalion if I remember correctly.

Karol wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics' GK force that won that fun n fluff tournament 5-0 was based around draigo, a gmdk, 3x10 interceptors and 3 TLC ven dreads I seem to recall. That must have taken a cut in the region of 300pts. Seems like a viable place to start, if I were trying to build a useable GK force post CA. Not that I'm saying they're competitive, of course not: neither is Lawrence! Just that, having watched a few batreps with it in play, it's a very interesting playstyle.

Doesnt that tournament have like a wierd set of rules? like it is not 2000pts, only monofactions, highlander , no FW, no LoW and they use ITC missions, which few people use outside of UK as far as europe goes. Plus he should be playing a battalion if I remember correctly.

Its VERY restrictive, no one should EVER say its a tournament, b.c its not.

Well, i mean, it is, but its so restrictive, its a like a boxing match, with 1 eye closed, 1 arm tied behind your back, and extra soft mits, in fancy clothes

Yeah I actually checked and he didn't win the tournament, he won overall by having highest fluff and fun scores etc. Some other guy took best general. Plus the list seems illegal, for the event, they only let DE play with non battalion detachments. I guess so few people play GK, that sometimes it can give you and edge Unless what he run were not interceptors, but strikes. Hell of a gamer and dice roller though, if he went 5/0 with those. Hates of to him, if he pulled it of with strikes.

 grouchoben wrote:
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics' GK force that won that fun n fluff tournament 5-0 was based around draigo, a gmdk, 3x10 interceptors and 3 TLC ven dreads I seem to recall. That must have taken a cut in the region of 300pts. Seems like a viable place to start, if I were trying to build a useable GK force post CA. Not that I'm saying they're competitive, of course not: neither is Lawrence! Just that, having watched a few batreps with it in play, it's a very interesting playstyle.

Yeah really the ven dread is going to be an essential platform for any "competitive" marine build. 140 is really good for what you get in a space marine list and the +5 points for the GK one is worth what you get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The only reason Venom Cannon's weren't taken in more is because you can't take a squad of 5 like you can with Lascannons, you get 1 per an MC body, and there is an opportunity cost associated with that as it means you miss out on 1 set of devourers but still have to take 1 set for the other guns, and that leaves the unit kinda running messy. That being said, Xenomancers is right, players who did do stuff like spamming Carnifexes with Venom Cannons saw great success with it. I don't think the Venom Cannon was overcosted at all. I don't think it makes the race much stronger outside of that one build, but Xenomancers already said that.

It also doesn't make any sense to include the Enhanced Senses upgrade as part of the cost of the gun. You're paying about 10 pts for a head upgrade whether you take Devourers, Deathspitters, Venom Cannons, or even any of the melee load outs. That is not a cost associated with the gun, and at the very least, seems hypocritical to factor in that cost to the price of the Venom Cannon while dictating that the Lascannons get full re-rolls to everything but not factoring in the cost of that, or factoring in the cost that SM models pay for their 3+ as well.

Well In my casual lists I sometimes bring a 9 man warrior with a prime and 3 VC and 6 death spitter to shoot twice with. That build just dropped by 54 points. That is a big deal.
The 9 man warrior with 9 pairs of boneswords 6 DS and 3 VC has dropped to 264 (246 without bone swords) from 288 and the prime dropped from 100 to 70.

The problem is this squad just gets friggen vaporized by too many things in this game. It does a lot of damage when you combine its melle and shooting in a single turn though. Plus it's a troop and provides a lot of synapse. Probably the best unit we have available to use catalyst on too. I run Levi all the time. 6 + FNP really helps warriors as a lot of times multi damage weapons fail to kill them. Had a Castellan Shoot and do 5 wounds with it's relic plasma. Non levi is 5 auto dead Warriors. As levi I only lost 2.

With the new points the TTG list comes in at exactly 1250 if it is 3 strike teams and 1280 if interceptors. So, I can only assume that the event ran around 1500 points.

For the sake of actual discussion, I'd like to know what the exact army building rules were for the event since it looks like there were some restrictions on army building. I'd also be interested as to which armies he faced to go 5-0. Only then can we actually discuss the above list and its effectiveness.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


For the sake of actual discussion, I'd like to know what the exact army building rules were for the event since it looks like there were some restrictions on army building.

Idon't know what his actual list was but sounds like he broke the rules if what you guys said is true. I'm pretty sure the lists were on BCP if anyone has the sub to check.

Heres the tournament pack if you wanna review it

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EbS5HUCF2Wddlhg6L32aWeecwapB-IaU/view

This is a massively restricted version of 40k

I agree. If what is reported on this thread is true the army is illegal under the event's rules. The rules specifically say that each data sheet is unique and treated as a 0-1 unit restriction. Therefore 3 GK Dreads of any type would be illegal (FW is banned so the only dreads available would be normal and venerable).

As such until we can get the actual list this list is not an example of the proper usage of GK in a competitive environment.