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 Blackie wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Not sure if I like it. Seems bit too strong for me.

Me too. Looks definitely too strong.

Some armies have only one answer against the most broken imperium combo, which is the castellan one, to bring hordes. Now if the imperium soup becomes way more effective against hordes without nerfing the huge dude to the ground it's another unfair and unneeded change to buff imperium armies. I understand SM are GW's posterboys but I always have hope

Err, well, those were IG with the knights not marines. Marines still don't have orders benefits. This does make Deathwatch plus a knight seem a little nuts, but it will be fewer bodies overall.

So does this effect the new bolt rifle stratagem?

I don't have the book in front of me. Doesn't it just make them Rapid fire 2 or does it require them to be in rapid fire range?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Slaaneshy combibolter chosen now best blob removal ever.

On the other hand noise marines with sonic weaponry can go play slaaneshmas.

If they stay still or get close. People will need to deploy a hair off the line to make sure they don't get blown away turn 1.

Either way I now want a rapid fire heavy bolter

Bharring wrote:
All 3 of us who still run armies that are scared of Boltguns are doomed.

Yes, my typical list is scared of Boltguns as is.

That said, I think this would do more to help balance than hurt it. Not a fan, wish they balanced it another way, but better than how things are now.

I'd say DW SS Vets are pretty scared of lots of boltguns.

 fraser1191 wrote:
So does this effect the new bolt rifle stratagem?

I don't have the book in front of me. Doesn't it just make them Rapid fire 2 or does it require them to be in rapid fire range?

Yes, works together. Makes them Rapid Fire 2, new Boltgun rules let's you fire Rapid Fire if you fulfill one of the three conditions.

I think people who put Storm Shields on every Vet are going to find out very quickly that no, not every gun as AP-onemillion.

Those who only put a few SS on their Vets are going to find out a little slower.

One thing to note is that this is a beta rule. If they discover that it makes certain things really broken, they may scale it back for certain circumstances.

 Nevelon wrote:
Where else can we get them? Centurians, who also get a call out for always on. Will help their tubby slow selves actually be able to shoot stuff.

They'll get some extra mileage out of the mortal wound stratagem certainly.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So does this effect the new bolt rifle stratagem?

I don't have the book in front of me. Doesn't it just make them Rapid fire 2 or does it require them to be in rapid fire range?

Yes, works together. Makes them Rapid Fire 2, new Boltgun rules let's you fire Rapid Fire if you fulfill one of the three conditions.

I guess I'll try running that formation for once

I think this is a great change. Wish it effected Heavy Bolters as well, though.

It certainly isn't going to be meta-changing for most Astartes armies, but Deathwatch are the clear winners here.
Especially DW Intercessors. Why bother with the Stalker bolter when you can use the Bolt Rifle, sit stationary in cover and get 2 shots at 36" that are AP-2?
Or 2 shots at 30" AP-1 that wound on 2+?
And good gravy DW Termies are gonna be fun.

-

To avoid DW OPness, just make it so that SIA voids this rule. DW SBs can still put out 4 shots at distance, but if they want to use special ammo, they have to get closer. Seems balanced & fair to me (a DW player).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And more generally, praise the lord, this is a great beta rule. Marines ain't too tough but their problem was always how ineffectual they were in terms of damage output. Indomitus Crusade vets, triggering their strat, will now CHEW hordes for breakfast, which is all kinds of cool.

Those ancient mathhammer arguments about marines vs guardsmen will look an awful lot different now too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Deathwatch are the clear winners here.
Especially DW Intercessors.

Nah, it's SB vets. Again.

 Galef wrote:
I think this is a great change. Wish it effected Heavy Bolters as well, though.

It certainly isn't going to be meta-changing for most Astartes armies, but Deathwatch are the clear winners here.
Especially DW Intercessors. Why bother with the Stalker bolter when you can use the Bolt Rifle, sit stationary in cover and get 2 shots at 36" that are AP-2?
Or 2 shots at 30" AP-1 that wound on 2+?
And good gravy DW Termies are gonna be fun.

-

The new rule also affects storm bolters

So, if I'm reading this right, for a basic Tac squad, all that changes is that they can double-tap out to 24" if they don't move, while bigger units can just always doubletap out to 24" right?

While I don't think this will break anything, I don't think it will do much to help the units that need it most either. I don't expect too many meta shifts, but it will make Marines a bit killier at intermediate ranges.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, if I'm reading this right, for a basic Tac squad, all that changes is that they can double-tap out to 24" if they don't move, while bigger units can just always doubletap out to 24" right?

While I don't think this will break anything, I don't think it will do much to help the units that need it most either. I don't expect too many meta shifts, but it will make Marines a bit killier at intermediate ranges.

Its not intended to be a massive balance sweep that will shake the foundations of the meta.

Its just meant to make your bog standard marines suck a little less.

 grouchoben wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Deathwatch are the clear winners here.
Especially DW Intercessors.

Nah, it's SB vets. Again.

I won't deny that SB/SS Vets got a clear bump here. But the extra wound, range and AP of Intercessors allows them to be parked in cover and affect the game more. Even with SS, Vets are only 1 wound and with ALL Astartes getting this bonus, SS just got a slight nerf.
It doesn't matter which unit is better than the other, both are getting a more significant bump than most other Astartes because of SIA.

-

 grouchoben wrote:


Nah, it's SB vets. Again.

Sure...but how often were you out of rapid fire with SB Vets anyway? Pretty infrequently against most opponents, I'd say.

It'll be DW Terminators and bikes that benefit the most.

Scarab Occult Terminators, anyone?

Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.

Lemondish wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:


Nah, it's SB vets. Again.

Sure...but how often were you out of rapid fire with SB Vets anyway? Pretty infrequently against most opponents, I'd say.

It'll be DW Terminators and bikes that benefit the most.

And DW Intercessors parked in cover. Their extra wound, range and AP makes them great backfield objective holders that are now getting 10 shots per unit of 5 at either 30" AP-1 wounding on 2+, or 36" with AP-2

-

the_scotsman wrote:
Scarab Occult Terminators, anyone?

Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.

I thought about it, but, SOT still suffer from the fact that they use power swords and then only move 4” a turn. I’d rather throw my CP into Tzaangors etc than VotLW on the SOT. They are great Marine and chaff killers, but I think they really struggle against a lot of other stuff right now. I don’t think having 24” rapid fire would have had too much of an impact on any of the games in which I’ve ran 5 or even 10 SOT :(

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Scarab Occult Terminators, anyone?

Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.

I thought about it, but, SOT still suffer from the fact that they use power swords and then only move 4” a turn. I’d rather throw my CP into Tzaangors etc than VotLW on the SOT. They are great Marine and chaff killers, but I think they really struggle against a lot of other stuff right now. I don’t think having 24” rapid fire would have had too much of an impact on any of the games in which I’ve ran 5 or even 10 SOT :(

"Suffer" from the fact they use power swords? What edition are you playing, friend, terminators fight for the PRIVILEGE of 4 point power weapons in 8th.

You can't on one hand say DW terminators are going to be OP and crap on SOTs - the reason DW terminators are good is the fact that they can take power weapons and their storm bolters are beefed up.

I never said DW termies are going to be OP. They will benefit more, sure, due to their SIA, but that’s it. I still maintain it’s going to better on backfield units and bikers and rather wasted on termies.

My issue with SOT and power swords, is that, when was the last time you opted to put a power sword onto anything, especially over thunder hammers, power fists or even lightening claws? SOT can do some work in combat, but, for me, it’s not really the place you want them to be, especially if you can’t quickly kill what you’re charging. At which point, you could simply opt to run 10 Rubric Marines instead and only lose out on the missiles.

10, or even 20 Rubric Marines webwaying in or DMCing can certainly put out a lot of damage – it just costs you 382 points.

I would have thought something like Death to the False Emperor or Dakka Dakka but for wounds would have been better. Like Adeptus or Heretic Astartes models would get to roll extra wound rolls for each roll of 6. Just me wish-listing I suppose.

Kdash wrote:
I never said DW termies are going to be OP. They will benefit more, sure, due to their SIA, but that’s it. I still maintain it’s going to better on backfield units and bikers and rather wasted on termies.

My issue with SOT and power swords, is that, when was the last time you opted to put a power sword onto anything, especially over thunder hammers, power fists or even lightening claws? SOT can do some work in combat, but, for me, it’s not really the place you want them to be, especially if you can’t quickly kill what you’re charging. At which point, you could simply opt to run 10 Rubric Marines instead and only lose out on the missiles.

10, or even 20 Rubric Marines webwaying in or DMCing can certainly put out a lot of damage – it just costs you 382 points.

Every time I've taken a Terminator, I have wanted to put a power sword on it over a power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw. Every time. Because like you just said, combat is not where you want them to be - you want them to be shooting things with the AP-2 boltguns, soulreaper cannons, smites and hellfire missiles.

5x SOTs cost exactly the same as 10x rubrics, put out 1 more bolter shot at 12" and now 11 more at 24", get +1 to their armor and invulnerable saves, AP-3 in combat, and deep strike, basically all for free. Plus, you can buy them missiles for 15pts just as an added bonus.

Other than scout bikes and DW bikers, I can't think of a unit that benefits more from this rule change than SOTs.

Rules are up on WarCom


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eh, nice of them to mention the relics, we don't need a replay of the relic battle cannon events

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I never said DW termies are going to be OP. They will benefit more, sure, due to their SIA, but that’s it. I still maintain it’s going to better on backfield units and bikers and rather wasted on termies.

My issue with SOT and power swords, is that, when was the last time you opted to put a power sword onto anything, especially over thunder hammers, power fists or even lightening claws? SOT can do some work in combat, but, for me, it’s not really the place you want them to be, especially if you can’t quickly kill what you’re charging. At which point, you could simply opt to run 10 Rubric Marines instead and only lose out on the missiles.

10, or even 20 Rubric Marines webwaying in or DMCing can certainly put out a lot of damage – it just costs you 382 points.

Every time I've taken a Terminator, I have wanted to put a power sword on it over a power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw. Every time. Because like you just said, combat is not where you want them to be - you want them to be shooting things with the AP-2 boltguns, soulreaper cannons, smites and hellfire missiles.

5x SOTs cost exactly the same as 10x rubrics, put out 1 more bolter shot at 12" and now 11 more at 24", get +1 to their armor and invulnerable saves, AP-3 in combat, and deep strike, basically all for free. Plus, you can buy them missiles for 15pts just as an added bonus.

Other than scout bikes and DW bikers, I can't think of a unit that benefits more from this rule change than SOTs.

They got the same invul mate. (and technically SOT cost 3 more points, but that's a nitpick)

And SOT main issue is that they are more vulnerable to multi-damage attacks compared to rubrics, and against most D1 shot are just as good (because all is dust making 1 damage shots do the number of wounds unless AP-1 or AP-2, higher or lower its the same. unless you are in cover and then its AP-2 and AP-3 who are identical)
Rubrics more vulnerable to moral damage and CC though.

Basically, its pretty much a wash. each got an edge in some conditions, but unless you got some target magnets for enemy heavy guns, the SOT will just die a lot faster.
It used to be clear rubrics are superior if you are not DSing (and even then, mostly superior)-but SOT can now walk and shoot to full distance makes them more attractive.

I'd still prefer rubrics unless I've got tanks and such around though-because as said, if you got heavy guns targeting your SOT, they are inferior to rubrics in durability.

Well, makes my double bolter Rhinos a bit cooler. Death Guard still get better rapid fire plasma, and cultists, and the heavy and assault weapon bonus so no big loss. Of course, I just sold off all my Space Marine bikers a few months ago, and actually dismantled my Stormraven gunship. Might have to go and convert up double bolter Chosen if I have any Marine models left.

Oh, right, they get the downside of being slow with their Cataphractii armor but they don't get the 4++ invuln save that loyalists get with the exact same armor because reasons. I forgot that they also fethed that up in 8th along with their force swords becoming power swords.

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Scarab Occult Terminators, anyone?

Every gun they have is now a nice, clean 24" range.

I thought about it, but, SOT still suffer from the fact that they use power swords and then only move 4” a turn. I’d rather throw my CP into Tzaangors etc than VotLW on the SOT. They are great Marine and chaff killers, but I think they really struggle against a lot of other stuff right now. I don’t think having 24” rapid fire would have had too much of an impact on any of the games in which I’ve ran 5 or even 10 SOT :(

Shoot behind the screen - charge the screen.

SoT can now also place more optimally and be effective for longer.

30 Tzaangors with VotLW can do 6.7 wounds to T7 3+. 6 Scarabs (roughly the same points; SB only) can do 5.3 from 24". Those Tzaangors have to make it into melee and not all models will be in base.