Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They need to be able to do what they are meant to do.


Vindicare should kill a 4 wound character on average every turn for him to be worth 100pts, since he only gets one shot and is CP heavy.

Calladius needs one more attack and her pistol should get upgraded to do 2 mortals if you match their Ld, d3+1 if you exceed. She should also be immune to overwatch. I'd also give her the ability to roll a d6 at the start of the game and if you roll a 7+ (with a +1 for every character in their army list) your opponent looses 2 CP.

Eversor needs 1 extra AP and i'd like his explosion to be stronger. flat 3 mortals to any unit in engagement range and d3 to any other units within 6".

Culexus has good abilities and strats, but his base stats are poop for 100 pts. Make it so that any psycher within 6" of him cannot cast powers at all, and make it so that anything within engagement of him (including allies) loose any aura abilities.

That would make up for every crappy xmas I've ever had if I got those changes. While we're at it, I'd like it if they could all character target, flat stop. No look out sir shenanigans, or mistaken RAI. RAW I want them to have maximal character targeting. Nothing can hide from them, nothing should be able to.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They need to be able to do what they are meant to do.


Vindicare should kill a 4 wound character on average every turn for him to be worth 100pts, since he only gets one shot and is CP heavy.

Calladius needs one more attack and her pistol should get upgraded to do 2 mortals if you match their Ld, d3+1 if you exceed. She should also be immune to overwatch. I'd also give her the ability to roll a d6 at the start of the game and if you roll a 7+ (with a +1 for every character in their army list) your opponent looses 2 CP.

Eversor needs 1 extra AP and i'd like his explosion to be stronger. flat 3 mortals to any unit in engagement range and d3 to any other units within 6".

Culexus has good abilities and strats, but his base stats are poop for 100 pts. Make it so that any psycher within 6" of him cannot cast powers at all, and make it so that anything within engagement of him (including allies) loose any aura abilities.

I like all those changes, though I'm not sure whether the 2cp drain on the callidus would be too good.

One other thing about the vindicare, I think he should be able to flat out target characters not matter what and not "just" ignore look out sire. That way you can't use things like deathshroud to keep your characters save. I think given his cost and him only ever having one shot, that change would be fair.

Edit: also the idea of the culexus shutting down aura abilities for both friend and foe is absolutely amazing, super fluffy, I love it. Him completely inhibiting the ability to cast anything when near him might be too strong though, not sure.

A 6" bubble of denying psychic powers is probably workable. You cast psychic powers on your own turn, and most psykers can move at least 6". If you're within engagement range of him and have to fall back to get outside of 6", you're not casting powers due to the fall back rules anyway, right?

Tabletop Titans was talking about this the other day. Their idea was for snipers (including the Vindicare) to be able to pick the model(s) that are removed. I think this extends well to Assassins, each serving a different purpose:

General rules: 4++, no more than 1 assassin per army.

Vindicare - 1 shot, can advance and shoot, but can shoot twice (separate activations) if doesn't move. Damage 3, pick the model removed (removes sergeants/exarchs/etc), but can also remove lynchpin models keeping a unit in coherency. Can also plink remaining wounds off characters (ignores bodyguard /Look Out Sir). Cannot be targeted unless within 12", -2 to hit (which means unless the opponent puts a LOT of strats/etc. into him, he'll always be -1 to hit)

Callidus - appears within 3" of a unit out of engagement range, smallish number of melee attacks (5ish), but you can pick the models to be removed starting with the closest model. Reign of Confusion: Before she appears, strategms cost 1 extra CP, while on the board, strategms/orders/auras do not work on units within 3" of her ("Why is Bob killing us?!?!?). Once per game, while not on the board a Callidus can force a unit to disembark, but must then appear within 3" of that unit on the next turn. [edit] Cannot be overwatched [/edit]

Eversor - can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside of 6" of a unit, large number of attacks (6+). Cannot be chosen as a target of "fight last", can advance, shoot and charge in same turn, -1Ld on enemies in engagement range. Can pick the models removed as casualties, for 2CP can pile-in&fight twice

Culexus - cannot be targeted unless within 12". May always target psykers, -2 to cast psychic powers within 12" of him. Pick the model(s) to be removed starting with the closest. -2 Ld on units within 6", picks 1 unit within engagement range to fight last. Smallish number of melee attacks (say 4), [edit] must roll below Ld on 2d6 to be overwatched [/edit]

So assassins can remove key models from units like sergeants, which reduces leadership, then you have various flavors of murderballs. Vindicare: 1-2 models per turn anywhere on the board. Callidus: a key unit holding a flank/position or a unit primed to leap across the board. Eversor: a pure bloodthirsty monster murder ball. And finally, the "I dare you to bring a psyker or two!" guy.

I just don't want the Imperium getting any more super broken stuff, and this all screams of broken as hell, imho.

brainpsyk wrote:

Vindicare - 1 shot, can advance and shoot, but can shoot twice (separate activations) if doesn't move. Damage 3, pick the model removed (removes sergeants/exarchs/etc), but can also remove lynchpin models keeping a unit in coherency. Can also plink remaining wounds off characters (ignores bodyguard /Look Out Sir). Cannot be targeted unless within 12", -2 to hit (which means unless the opponent puts a LOT of strats/etc. into him, he'll always be -1 to hit)

Feels a little kitchen-sinky, but probably okay. Wiping out models by breaking unit coherency is gamey and annoying, but I guess there's precedence in death jester. Not sure how I feel about the baked in -2. It basically negates the first step of buffs your opponent applies to himself. Like, if your opponent went to the trouble of casting a psychic power to buff their accuracy, it seems like that should be acknowledged by the rules. (Even if you're just breaking even and hitting on your normal BS). Plus, are vindicares actually all that hard to see/hit once you're shooting at them? Not being able to target them from a distance models your inability to pick out a single stealthy dude on a battlefield, but once you're shooting at him, what makes it so hard to draw a bead?

Callidus - appears within 3" of a unit out of engagement range, smallish number of melee attacks (5ish), but you can pick the models to be removed starting with the closest model. Reign of Confusion: Before she appears, strategms cost 1 extra CP, while on the board, strategms/orders/auras do not work on units within 3" of her ("Why is Bob killing us?!?!?). Once per game, while not on the board a Callidus can force a unit to disembark, but must then appear within 3" of that unit on the next turn. [edit] Cannot be overwatched [/edit]

Removing closest models has the same gamey flavor as the shooting version on the vindi. Also, both of these would need slightly verbose wording to explain how they interact with the normal rules for allocaitng wounds to models that have already taken damage. Probably fitting though.

Those Reign of Confusion changes kind of make me want to leave her in reserves as long as possible. The current version of this rule makes makes your opponent think hard about whether a strat is worth it, and the CP cost to keep it going for additional turns creates interesting decisions for both players. Adding 50% or 100% to the CP cost of most of your opponent's stratagems for multiple turns at no CP cost to yourself just feels like kind of a no-brainer unless you're facing an army that doesn't really have any use for mid-game strats.

Not sure what you're going for with the disembark thing. You force your opponent to disembark on your turn? And then you have to show up within 3" of them on the following turn? Or you make them disembark on their own turn, but then you have to show up within 3" of them on your own following turn, implying that you're sneaky enough to stay off the table during their turn but somehow stop being that sneaky on your own turn? A little unclear on how this is meant to work.

Eversor - can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside of 6" of a unit, large number of attacks (6+). Cannot be chosen as a target of "fight last", can advance, shoot and charge in same turn, -1Ld on enemies in engagement range. Can pick the models removed as casualties, for 2CP can pile-in&fight twice

Is the 6" deployment thing instead of the 3d6" charge? If not, then you're basically saying they automatically make their charges out of reserves. Which I'm pretty iffy about. If you mean instead of, then you're actually loweirng their chances of getting into combat. A 3d6" charge at 9" has about a 74% chance of succeeding (according to Google). A 6" charge made with 2d6 has about a 72.23% chance of success. So do you feel that that 1.77% difference is the secret sauce that will fix the eversor? And if not, why bother changing the rule?

Not sure how you justify the Eversor being immune to fight last effects. If they're psychological in nature, I guess I could see it, but doesn't the necron chronomancer have a fight last ability that reflects them literally manipulating time itself? Also a little iffy on the froth-mouthed Eversor being better at removing specific targets than a callidus.

The Eversor already has 6 attacks base (8 on the charge) and the ability to fight twice (as well as the ability to get bonus attacks based on how many casualties you inflict), and I have no complaints about those already-existing abilities.

So tldr; advance + shoot + charge and a -1 Ld aura is probably fine. Not sure about the rest.

Culexus - cannot be targeted unless within 12". May always target psykers, -2 to cast psychic powers within 12" of him. Pick the model(s) to be removed starting with the closest. -2 Ld on units within 6", picks 1 unit within engagement range to fight last. Smallish number of melee attacks (say 4), [edit] must roll below Ld on 2d6 to be overwatched

Being untargetable outside of 12" is probably fine as long as that's instead of its existing "only get hit on 6+" rule. The two together would probably be both too powerful and utterly frustrating to play against. The psychic test debuff you're proposing is actually a worse version of its existing Abomination rule. The always fights last ability feels a bit much (are they just so scary that my torture elves are going to slow down for them?), but probably fine. The overwatch thing feels a little unnecessary. Do these guys regularly get charged into units that are really good at overwatch? I can't think of a lot of flamer-equipped psykers that would give them a hard time, and I'm not sure why this guy would be harder to panic fire at than a calidus or eversor, so not sure what you're trying to convey narratively here. Unless it's just the spook factor again?

So assassins can remove key models from units like sergeants, which reduces leadership, then you have various flavors of murderballs. Vindicare: 1-2 models per turn anywhere on the board. Callidus: a key unit holding a flank/position or a unit primed to leap across the board. Eversor: a pure bloodthirsty monster murder ball. And finally, the "I dare you to bring a psyker or two!" guy.

I'm not sure most of the changes you've pitched help them fill those roles.
* The vindicaire, sure. Picking off specific models seems like his job (even if that would be super annoying to play against).
* The calidus doesn't seem any better at holding a flank with these changes. If anything, these changes want me to keep her off the table entirely for as long as possible and then dive at my opponent's most important aura when she arrives. I don't see which of your rules helps her leap across the table.
* The eversor does leap across the table a little more reliably with your changes (at least after the turn he arrives when he's advancing + charging). But your changes don't really make him more of a murderball than he already was; they just make him situationally more mobile, more leadership debuffy, and immune to a relatively rare type of debuff.
* Your version of the Culexus is worse at countering psykers than the normal version (can't debuff DtW tests) aside from his ability to shoot at a psyker. Your changes seem to make him better at dealing with a wider variety of enemy units rather than leaning into his anti-psyker specialization.

None of which is inherently bad; you can make the argument that what the eversor needs is mobility and what the culexus needs is to be better against a wider range of targets. But let's be aware of what the impact of the proposed changes would actually be.

Hope that didn't come across as dickish. Thanks for sharing the interesting ideas!

Are we expecting GW to really focus any time on updating their minor factions? Like we haven't seen any attention at all in either GW or WD for inquisitors, Assassins, Star Striders, or whatever. Not to say 9th has been an easy roll out, but their isn't like building a new codex right? And they aren't releasing any new models, so it's not like they need to drive sales? Just drop a new sheet in WD and call it good? I think GW is trying to steer the barge away from any type of soup unit. They are heavily favoring pure lists in every faction. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see any minor faction updates till need the end of 9th.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we expecting GW to really focus any time on updating their minor factions? Like we haven't seen any attention at all in either GW or WD for inquisitors, Assassins, Star Striders, or whatever. Not to say 9th has been an easy roll out, but their isn't like building a new codex right? And they aren't releasing any new models, so it's not like they need to drive sales? Just drop a new sheet in WD and call it good? I think GW is trying to steer the barge away from any type of soup unit. They are heavily favoring pure lists in every faction. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see any minor faction updates till need the end of 9th.

Sorry, Fezzik. I'm not clear on what you're getting at here. Assassins were a relatively late PA update and not a large faction, so I doubt there will be any GW releases for them in the near future. I view this forum as more of a place to discuss possible homebrew rules for use in our own games or possibly a way to talk out feedback that you might want to submit to the GW rules team.

As for steering away from soup, I suspect that's an attempt to course correct after the loyal 32 style ally antics in 8th. Allies were seen as an auto-take for many factions, and mono-faction benefits like doctrines were met with generally positive responses. So... long live the monofactions.

Wyldhunt wrote:

brainpsyk wrote:

Vindicare - 1 shot, can advance and shoot, but can shoot twice (separate activations) if doesn't move. Damage 3, pick the model removed (removes sergeants/exarchs/etc), but can also remove lynchpin models keeping a unit in coherency. Can also plink remaining wounds off characters (ignores bodyguard /Look Out Sir). Cannot be targeted unless within 12", -2 to hit (which means unless the opponent puts a LOT of strats/etc. into him, he'll always be -1 to hit)

Feels a little kitchen-sinky, but probably okay. Wiping out models by breaking unit coherency is gamey and annoying, but I guess there's precedence in death jester. Not sure how I feel about the baked in -2. It basically negates the first step of buffs your opponent applies to himself. Like, if your opponent went to the trouble of casting a psychic power to buff their accuracy, it seems like that should be acknowledged by the rules. (Even if you're just breaking even and hitting on your normal BS). Plus, are vindicares actually all that hard to see/hit once you're shooting at them? Not being able to target them from a distance models your inability to pick out a single stealthy dude on a battlefield, but once you're shooting at him, what makes it so hard to draw a bead?

Basically, the idea is that he's untargetable at range, but once you get close enough, you can kill him will a volume of fire, just like a normal sniper.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Callidus - appears within 3" of a unit out of engagement range, smallish number of melee attacks (5ish), but you can pick the models to be removed starting with the closest model. Reign of Confusion: Before she appears, strategms cost 1 extra CP, while on the board, strategms/orders/auras do not work on units within 3" of her ("Why is Bob killing us?!?!?). Once per game, while not on the board a Callidus can force a unit to disembark, but must then appear within 3" of that unit on the next turn. [edit] Cannot be overwatched [/edit]

Removing closest models has the same gamey flavor as the shooting version on the vindi. Also, both of these would need slightly verbose wording to explain how they interact with the normal rules for allocaitng wounds to models that have already taken damage. Probably fitting though.

Those Reign of Confusion changes kind of make me want to leave her in reserves as long as possible. The current version of this rule makes makes your opponent think hard about whether a strat is worth it, and the CP cost to keep it going for additional turns creates interesting decisions for both players. Adding 50% or 100% to the CP cost of most of your opponent's stratagems for multiple turns at no CP cost to yourself just feels like kind of a no-brainer unless you're facing an army that doesn't really have any use for mid-game strats.

Not sure what you're going for with the disembark thing. You force your opponent to disembark on your turn? And then you have to show up within 3" of them on the following turn? Or you make them disembark on their own turn, but then you have to show up within 3" of them on your own following turn, implying that you're sneaky enough to stay off the table during their turn but somehow stop being that sneaky on your own turn? A little unclear on how this is meant to work.

That's the intended choice :-). You want to leave the Cal in reserve as long as possible, but you can force a unit to disembark right before they go "all in". Its not game breaking, but it is disruption. Imagine forcing a unit in the backfield to disembark (so they are vulnerable to artillery), or make a unit of incubi disembark before a transport flies across the board. Now they are either burning CP to get back into the transport, or you've disrupted their strategy.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Eversor - can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside of 6" of a unit, large number of attacks (6+). Cannot be chosen as a target of "fight last", can advance, shoot and charge in same turn, -1Ld on enemies in engagement range. Can pick the models removed as casualties, for 2CP can pile-in&fight twice

Is the 6" deployment thing instead of the 3d6" charge? If not, then you're basically saying they automatically make their charges out of reserves. Which I'm pretty iffy about. If you mean instead of, then you're actually loweirng their chances of getting into combat. A 3d6" charge at 9" has about a 74% chance of succeeding (according to Google). A 6" charge made with 2d6 has about a 72.23% chance of success. So do you feel that that 1.77% difference is the secret sauce that will fix the eversor? And if not, why bother changing the rule?

Not sure how you justify the Eversor being immune to fight last effects. If they're psychological in nature, I guess I could see it, but doesn't the necron chronomancer have a fight last ability that reflects them literally manipulating time itself? Also a little iffy on the froth-mouthed Eversor being better at removing specific targets than a callidus.

The Eversor already has 6 attacks base (8 on the charge) and the ability to fight twice (as well as the ability to get bonus attacks based on how many casualties you inflict), and I have no complaints about those already-existing abilities.

So tldr; advance + shoot + charge and a -1 Ld aura is probably fine. Not sure about the rest.

This is just personal preference, as I don't like 3d6 charges (a person on foot can keep up with Jetbikes?). So the 6" charge to me just allows more advantageous positioning, and makes it harder to screen him out, and if you think you have him screened out, guess again. It's about disruption.

And for the immune to fight last, every model with fight first is already almost immune. This just puts a blanket rule on the assassin to avoid shenanigans.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Culexus - cannot be targeted unless within 12". May always target psykers, -2 to cast psychic powers within 12" of him. Pick the model(s) to be removed starting with the closest. -2 Ld on units within 6", picks 1 unit within engagement range to fight last. Smallish number of melee attacks (say 4), [edit] must roll below Ld on 2d6 to be overwatched

Being untargetable outside of 12" is probably fine as long as that's instead of its existing "only get hit on 6+" rule. The two together would probably be both too powerful and utterly frustrating to play against. The psychic test debuff you're proposing is actually a worse version of its existing Abomination rule. The always fights last ability feels a bit much (are they just so scary that my torture elves are going to slow down for them?), but probably fine. The overwatch thing feels a little unnecessary. Do these guys regularly get charged into units that are really good at overwatch? I can't think of a lot of flamer-equipped psykers that would give them a hard time, and I'm not sure why this guy would be harder to panic fire at than a calidus or eversor, so not sure what you're trying to convey narratively here. Unless it's just the spook factor again?

ya, this would be instead of 6+, maybe include the -2 to hit as well here. I don't like the idea of getting hit on a 6+, as it means conscripts and gretchin hit as well as space marines. And it's not the Cul is scary (like Grizzly Trophies), but a representation of you seeing something in front of you that doesn't exist and that moment of hesitation. So unless you're highly trained, that moment of disbelief will get you killed.

Wyldhunt wrote:

So assassins can remove key models from units like sergeants, which reduces leadership, then you have various flavors of murderballs. Vindicare: 1-2 models per turn anywhere on the board. Callidus: a key unit holding a flank/position or a unit primed to leap across the board. Eversor: a pure bloodthirsty monster murder ball. And finally, the "I dare you to bring a psyker or two!" guy.

I'm not sure most of the changes you've pitched help them fill those roles.
* The vindicaire, sure. Picking off specific models seems like his job (even if that would be super annoying to play against).
* The calidus doesn't seem any better at holding a flank with these changes. If anything, these changes want me to keep her off the table entirely for as long as possible and then dive at my opponent's most important aura when she arrives. I don't see which of your rules helps her leap across the table.
* The eversor does leap across the table a little more reliably with your changes (at least after the turn he arrives when he's advancing + charging). But your changes don't really make him more of a murderball than he already was; they just make him situationally more mobile, more leadership debuffy, and immune to a relatively rare type of debuff.
* Your version of the Culexus is worse at countering psykers than the normal version (can't debuff DtW tests) aside from his ability to shoot at a psyker. Your changes seem to make him better at dealing with a wider variety of enemy units rather than leaning into his anti-psyker specialization.

None of which is inherently bad; you can make the argument that what the eversor needs is mobility and what the culexus needs is to be better against a wider range of targets. But let's be aware of what the impact of the proposed changes would actually be.

Hope that didn't come across as dickish. Thanks for sharing the interesting ideas!

Not dickish at all, I welcome the constructive feedback :-)

some final thoughts
* the vindicare disrupts your battle plan and selectively makes units less effective
* the calidus doesn't hold a flank, she disrupts your battle plan and strikes weak areas
* the eversor disrupts battle plans by appearing anywhere and murdering a key unit or two, meaning you have to put a hammer into him to kill him
* the Culexus... well, he still sucks, always has, and probably always will... We'll take him the same time we take a unit of Hounds of Morkai, which is never (unless you need and extra 'fight last' in your army)

That sounds pretty good to me, brainpsyk. A couple of the more minor rules could probably be dropped for the sake of streamlining each datasheet, but the general approach makes sense. A couple things:

* I'm still not entirely sure how the calidus's disembark thing is meant to work. Does the disembarkation happen on your turn (so you can immediately shoot at the unit) or on your opponent's turn? And if the latter, do you just declare you're using the ability at some point in your opponent's movement phase? Just unclear on the specifics.

* Regarding the culexus, I still wonder if just straight up preventing the casting of psychic powers within X" might do the trick. If you keep the current Etherium rule (instead of different defensive abilities), you'd end up with a somewhat hard-to-kill model that can prevent the casting of psychic powers on a key turn. Shutting down a daemon primarch's warp time or a farseer's doom for a turn could be a big deal, but there would still be a certain amount of counterplay by simply repositioning your psyker. So the culexus wouldn't be all that killy, but he would stick around and be disruptive to psychic-reliant battle plans.

I'm thinking something along the lines of this:

Once per game, while the Callidus is still in reserve, at the start of your opponents movement phase before any models have been moved, pick one enemy transport with models embarked. One unit whose models are embarked on the transport must immediately disembark per the normal disembarkation rules. Consequently, at the start of your next movement phase, before any of your models have moved, the Callidus must be placed within 3" of the unit that was forced to disembark. If the Callidus cannot be placed within 3" of the unit, it may be placed within 3" of the transport that contained the disembarked unit. If the Callidus cannot be placed within 3" of the unit or the transport, the Callidus is removed from play and counts as destroyed".

I think the Culexus will require a lot of playtesting. Its such a niche model that getting any kind of value will be hard.

I also thought of some wording around assassins picking the model to remove. It means dropping the "closest model" bit, but I think this works

Selective Assassination

Before rolling to hit with an assassins psychic, melee or ranged attacks, the player controlling the assassin may choose the model being allocated the wounds. Hitting, Wounding, armor and FNP saves proceed as normal, and if the wounds taken by the model after the attack are enough to kill the model, that model is killed and removed from play. Further attacks from the assassin must continue against the same target until the assassin runs out of attacks or the chosen model is killed. If, at the end of the assassins attacks there is not enough wounds to remove the selected model, if there is a model in the unit that has already taken damage, the damage from the attacks are allocated to the wounded model until the model is killed or no more damaging attacks remain. No saves of any kind are allowed against the allocated damage, and the damage cannot be passed on to any other unit. If, after the wounded model is killed there is still damage remaining from successful attacks, the damage must be allocated to the assassin's original target for that attack.

So basically pick a target, and keep on that target until it's dead. In a weird scenario where there is a wounded model, and you didn't kill your original target, you kill the wounded model, and then the remaining damage goes back to your original target (which we know wasn't able to be killed).

Instead of all these super custom sounding rules, I feel 9th has way too many rules as is and because of this we should look more into improving base stats and lowering point costs.

Vindicare should do more wounds when it does hit, to make it more vicious vs characters.

Callidus needs a better phase-blade and/or more attacks

Eversor needs a master-crafted power sword and a better neural gauntlet, maybe improve his pistol too

Culexus needs a better shooting profile with his animus speculum, including potentially a better anti-psycher profile, reducing psychic tests even more, doing even more damage to them when hitting them