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Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Marine players will also need to look deeper in their respective codexes for solutions too, now that the big boogeyman is not other power armour.
Accelerator autocannons, judiciar in your central objective anvil to shut down one of the nasty assaulting units.
Id gladly run my Deathwatch vs newkhari.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I don't actually accept that drukhari will be the best army. I think they'll be above the power curve but that Death Guard has every tool in their toolkit to minorly adjust the lists that are currently eating SM alive to also eat Drukhari alive.

Drukhari hate many things that DG already has plenty of access to - applying -1T to drukhari almost always nets you a wound shift (T6 heavy stuff to T5, T4 medium stuff to T3, T3 light stuff to T2), popular DG weapon profiles like Blight Launchers are fantastic against drukhari, the foul blightspawn dunks on what they want to do extremely hard, and many of the strongest units out of the gate in the drukhari codex have that '2' in the damage profile right where DG want to see it.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 cuda1179 wrote:
I know that Drukhari are Op right now, but I'm actually happy for them. They spent decades as GW's neglected stepchild. They deserve at least a couple months in the sun.


Not sure how that serves anyone?

Plastic figures don't have feelings or care.

And dedicated OG Drukhari-players aren't gonna be happy when the tournament-crowd abuses the hell out of the army for few months and gives it a bad name for years to come. Ask any "I-am-actually-into-this-army-for-the-fluff-and-lore-and-all-that"-fan of Iron Hands, Ynnari, etc..
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Outside of torpedo succubus and super drazar...they really arent that impressive.

They are fast and hit hard - but they die quickly. You will find as the "meta" is going to shift pretty soon to take all comers list because...every army requires different weapons to kill.


And when concerned I'll just take the weapon that kills the toughest target. If that overkills a space elf.... That's fine.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




When I take a look at my Custodes Bike List I built back at the end of 8th, and feel like the guy from The Waterboy:

"Oh no, WE SUCK AGAIN!"

Two Weeks later: "YOU CAN DO IT!"

Two more weeks later: "OH NO WE SUCK AGAIN!"
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When I take a look at my Custodes Bike List I built back at the end of 8th, and feel like the guy from The Waterboy:

"Oh no, WE SUCK AGAIN!"

Two Weeks later: "YOU CAN DO IT!"

Two more weeks later: "OH NO WE SUCK AGAIN!"


I mean....yeah, if you make a list based around one single unit and weapons loadout, that's extremely likely to happen to you. Particularly if you buy in at a higher point in that unit's competitive power, when you know that the attentions of games workshop's balancing team are going to be on it.

The only way to really guarantee you're not going to experience the balance pendulum swings that I've been able to figure out is to build purposefully un-optimized, wide, diverse lists, with individual squads built competently towards a given role, but not usually having many instances of any one thing that's particularly powerful in that given role.

For armies that have limited rosters like Custodes or my own harlequins, that's almost impossible, and I've had some incredibly frustrating experiences with the ways GW has changed that army in particular in the past - the squad I built to be 'anti-infantry' having to be completely rebuilt when GW changed the respective roles of all the Harlequin melee weapons in 8th from 7th, the fact that one of the two weapons you can equip both models that come in the box was given the Grenade keyword so literally only one model at a time is allowed to use them, and the fact that GW had a range weapon list with exactly 3 items on it, and they were unable throughout all of 8th to not make one of the two an absolute joke compared to the other.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Outside of torpedo succubus and super drazar...they really arent that impressive.

They are fast and hit hard - but they die quickly. You will find as the "meta" is going to shift pretty soon to take all comers list because...every army requires different weapons to kill.


And when concerned I'll just take the weapon that kills the toughest target. If that overkills a space elf.... That's fine.


So far in my experience with them, that's been the primary problem with MEQs fighting drukhari. They'll have a squad of, say, 4 eradicators with the heavy rifles and the multi-melta upgrade, and they'll point it at a raider and fething OBLITERATE IT dealing like 25 unsaved wounds...and the squad inside gets out, taking 1-2 casualties and requiring yet more firepower to take down, and there are 3 more raiders sitting there untouched ready for the passengers to jump out with the turn 2 advance and charge and crash the entirety of the SM lines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 18:11:47


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




My bike list was bland, but fun to play. Especially when I make zoomy and boomy sounds to simulate their fart powered engines.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wouldn't be surprised if there were a few nerfs, as quite a lot of choice seem very aggressively pointed. Admittedly though this was true in 8th on initial codex release - but then Knights came out 2 months later and the pax-Castellan began. (And then 18 months later DE did get nerfs but they had long ceased to define the meta.)

But I'd echo others that DE just seem designed to smash standard Marine style lists - which tend to be a few characters, 3*5 basic troops and then a few more chunky elite units. DE just lurk in their transports then go jump on those elite units (and their charge range is incredible, so you can't really hide), massacre them and consequently there's nothing to counter with. I feel a more MSU sort of style would do better - because you can set up for trades.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Drukhari perform really well against elite but not super high defense units, i.e. normal space marines. They don't do nearly so well against stuff that can put lots of cheap trash on the table to screen, and they also do less well against really durable stuff that can take that charge on the chin and still have enough left to respond. Somewhat ironically I think they'd also have a harder time against transport-heavy lists, which is not something you see much in the meta right now aside from, well, Drukhari.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 19:36:37


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I guess it depends on how many transports we are talking about - but I think part of the issue is that a heavy raider list is getting a lot of dark lances. (Or Disintegrators - which are still decent at killing MEQ - and decent versus lots of things if you are happy to roll on Dark Technomancers, which you probably are.)

I feel you are more likely to pop their transports than they are to blast yours.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 19:47:13


 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

You aren't taking Dizzies on your vehicles anymore. The new Dark Lance with new Black Heart is so value and it's also cheaper.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




My meta has been having an extremely hard time dealing with the DE build that has risen to the top. It has beaten multiple marines, death guard, sisters, harlies,Tyranids, necrons and wins the DE mirror match (if the DE bring a balanced list) without really breaking a sweat. It is just running 32 beefed up flamers and basically an entire list of T6 and T7 bodies.

Read a battle report here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/mwdqe5/tyranids_vs_new_drukhari_2000pt_written_battle/

No idea if this stuff will be FAQd, but hopefully it helps your discussion.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Reading through this thread it's apparent most people haven't been playing against at all optimized DE builds, and than making claims the army is fine. It would be like facing marine builds not using eradicators, bladeguard vets, MM attack bikes, interceptors ect and then saying the army is fine because intercessors die pretty easy for their points. (although quite frankly, the army is fine even with all this stuff).

How do I know this? 2 reasons. First is because most of the people agreeing with are DE players who actually know what's good in the codex. They're the ones saying cult of strife and Dark tecnomancers are a major problem.

Second is that the people who see the army as fine are bring up things like; Kabals, dark lances, venoms, scourges, ect and only look at Drazhar and the super succubus as problems. However, the best list atm is one that exclusively spams dark technomancer liquefier guns and doesn't use any of things, baring dark lances listed, in my second point. I'm not sure how anyone beats this list btw, and I'm still not even sure the codex is solved. People have argued this is also an oversight. but if you know GW at all, you can't just assume all of these "oversights" will just get fixed in the first FAQ and everything will be peachy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 02:33:31


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




DT with flamers is indeed problematic, as I said above it's really poor design to have a trait that makes certain weapons literally more than twice as good as they normally are.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I haven't been able to get any games in since the new codex dropped. Is DT liquifier spam really that hard to counter? Sincere question. We're talking about a very short-ranged weapon taken on platforms that don't generally have any other shooting mounted in transports that have comparable firepower to a razorback but with less durability against low AP weapons. I'm sure DT liquifiers are good (especially against marines), but is that really something you can build a competitive army around? Seems like most armies would have a range advantage, comparable or superior firepower (liquifiers are good, but they're likely the only shooting on the squads that take them), and the ability to shut down those liquifiers by diving into melee. And sure, wracks don't hate being in melee, but DT wracks also don't have any of the rules that make them particularly good in melee either. And a 5++/5+++ is solid, but isn't that less durable against most things things than a simple power armor save?

Again, sincere questions. I'm wondering what I'm not seeing.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





The DT spam doesn't care about durability. It still follows the DE concept of forcing trades and coming out ahead. 5 wracks with liquifiers may be really easy to take out, but they will also take out pretty much anything within 2x their point cost range.

The DT interaction with liquifiers is surely one of those things that really need a FAQ.
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

Wyldhunt wrote:
I haven't been able to get any games in since the new codex dropped. Is DT liquifier spam really that hard to counter? Sincere question. We're talking about a very short-ranged weapon taken on platforms that don't generally have any other shooting mounted in transports that have comparable firepower to a razorback but with less durability against low AP weapons. I'm sure DT liquifiers are good (especially against marines), but is that really something you can build a competitive army around? Seems like most armies would have a range advantage, comparable or superior firepower (liquifiers are good, but they're likely the only shooting on the squads that take them), and the ability to shut down those liquifiers by diving into melee. And sure, wracks don't hate being in melee, but DT wracks also don't have any of the rules that make them particularly good in melee either. And a 5++/5+++ is solid, but isn't that less durable against most things things than a simple power armor save?

Again, sincere questions. I'm wondering what I'm not seeing.


It all comes down to points and points efficiency.

Yeah, I guess everything you wrote is more or less correct but you are not taking points costs into account anywhere. When you're able to basically back 30+ Liquifiers into lists because Wracks and Grots are incredibly aggressively priced it doesn't really matter. A unit of 5 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers is something like 60 points and it can easily wipe a unit of like Intercessors no problem. Tagging them in combat is also a potentially bad idea because they're flamers and you can easily just get destroyed in Overwatch. I've heard anecdotes of 5 Sanguinary Guard being killed when charging 5 Wracks.

5++/5+++ on an 8 point model is more than solid too.

Oh and the range is negligible. DE have the transports to get into range and stay protected, and 9th is fought at very short ranges on average, focusing around mid-table brawls. You just park half of your Wracks and Grots aggressively mid-board and dare people to shift you. The other half continues to wait in transports to pounce and counterpunch anything it sees.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
I haven't been able to get any games in since the new codex dropped. Is DT liquifier spam really that hard to counter? Sincere question. We're talking about a very short-ranged weapon taken on platforms that don't generally have any other shooting mounted in transports that have comparable firepower to a razorback but with less durability against low AP weapons. I'm sure DT liquifiers are good (especially against marines), but is that really something you can build a competitive army around? Seems like most armies would have a range advantage, comparable or superior firepower (liquifiers are good, but they're likely the only shooting on the squads that take them), and the ability to shut down those liquifiers by diving into melee. And sure, wracks don't hate being in melee, but DT wracks also don't have any of the rules that make them particularly good in melee either. And a 5++/5+++ is solid, but isn't that less durable against most things things than a simple power armor save?

Again, sincere questions. I'm wondering what I'm not seeing.


Probably because of the raiders, raider can move, advance and than the flamers can still shoot, that give them the range and the raider give them protection.
The question is are liquifiers even decent without DT or GW again make the interaction that certain things dont work without certain combos.
I assume since only SM(DG are also SM) and necrons have codexes and they have similar boring(sleep on objectives) play style that is countered by drukhari and the rest factions are simply under powered 8th dexes, there is no one who can hard counter them and force them to put in the list not the optimal SM killing units.
Having in mind the codex is new and tournaments list are 2-3 weeks old, i`ll assume that from the end of next week we will see the real stats, since people will adjust their list.
But yes currently drukhari seem stronger, than the other factions. Codex releases are also slow and we are not sure what will happen when everything is released, the things that are super strong now, could be super average latter, so big nerfs can cripple the faction in the long run.
Typical GW things, nothing really to see here.
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






RandomHeretic wrote:
My meta has been having an extremely hard time dealing with the DE build that has risen to the top. It has beaten multiple marines, death guard, sisters, harlies,Tyranids, necrons and wins the DE mirror match (if the DE bring a balanced list) without really breaking a sweat. It is just running 32 beefed up flamers and basically an entire list of T6 and T7 bodies.

Read a battle report here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/mwdqe5/tyranids_vs_new_drukhari_2000pt_written_battle/

No idea if this stuff will be FAQd, but hopefully it helps your discussion.


Great batrep, seems you did all you could, if I was you I wouldn’t change my list, just wait for GW to intervene, no way dark technomancers is staying as it currently is. Just play against other armies, but if you have a tournament, well just accept that nids can’t do anything against liquéfier spam. Actually it is not just nids, I only see DA and DG resisting a bit to liquiefier spam. I have faith the nerf bat will fall within the next two months, GW have improved their response time. I think we are seeing the first real feth up in terms of 9th Ed codex, it will be corrected, it is no big deal really, 40k has so many armies, and luckily many players have more than one. Especially Druka players, who are often veteran players (at least in my neck of woods)
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Custodes do ok against liquifier spam too. If you can keep them wounding on no better than a 4+ and keep your save a 3+ or better, it's bearable, and if you can get your save to a 2+ (Allarus w/ strat, SS Guard in cover), it bounces off pretty harmlessly.

Not many factions have T5+ and a 1+/3++ or better save, though, and anything less than that and it just melts stuff.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I know that Drukhari are Op right now, but I'm actually happy for them. They spent decades as GW's neglected stepchild. They deserve at least a couple months in the sun.


Not sure how that serves anyone?

Plastic figures don't have feelings or care.

And dedicated OG Drukhari-players aren't gonna be happy when the tournament-crowd abuses the hell out of the army for few months and gives it a bad name for years to come. Ask any "I-am-actually-into-this-army-for-the-fluff-and-lore-and-all-that"-fan of Iron Hands, Ynnari, etc..


This.

I don't think any Non formation player was happy with some of the factions op formations that skewed the game and lead to interventions against specific units.
Neither was i happy at the time when R&H got abused with the purge formation and the vraks supplement.
It's the same as to why CSM players are unhappy if they play a legion that has no access to slaanesh but still wan'ts to field the shooty units (because cacophony singlehandedly hiked the price on many units)

These excesses have and will lead to more issues down the line. GW will compensate except when gw does that there's like a 75% chance they'll overcompensate.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






yukishiro1 wrote:
Custodes do ok against liquifier spam too. If you can keep them wounding on no better than a 4+ and keep your save a 3+ or better, it's bearable, and if you can get your save to a 2+ (Allarus w/ strat, SS Guard in cover), it bounces off pretty harmlessly.

Not many factions have T5+ and a 1+/3++ or better save, though, and anything less than that and it just melts stuff.


Ah yes custodes too, good point. They also have an ignore ap 1 or 2 strat. Though I think druka will just outmanoeuvre custodes and concentrate fire on a few key units, and custo will lose (even if they can preent being tabled). Custodes bikes will die in droves to liquefiers though

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 08:16:03


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




In some ways I'm glad the rise of the DT mass liquifier build has happened, because it confirms my ability to mathhammer a codex.

But yeah - its horrendous and will surely be nerfed hard. I don't think this is a Xeno on Inner Circle prediction - this will destroy casual FLGSs over the world.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Tyel wrote:
In some ways I'm glad the rise of the DT mass liquifier build has happened, because it confirms my ability to mathhammer a codex.

But yeah - its horrendous and will surely be nerfed hard. I don't think this is a Xeno on Inner Circle prediction - this will destroy casual FLGSs over the world.


It was horrible when it first came out in PA, and how GW missed the interaction with auto-hit weapons is just ......frustrating.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 11:28:53


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





It's GW.....
Considering their quality isn't great and they produced Obsec rules that didn't work for whole factions what did you expect, that they'd not screw up the magnitude of rulessources they had and distilled into a codex?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Codex Creep's just a feature now, rather than due to incompetence. But you'll keep buying into it so it's not like GW care.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Arbitrator wrote:
Codex Creep's just a feature now, rather than due to incompetence. But you'll keep buying into it so it's not like GW care.

Probably only 50% itentional though.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
DT with flamers is indeed problematic, as I said above it's really poor design to have a trait that makes certain weapons literally more than twice as good as they normally are.


I get this, and don't entirely disagree.

But just to play devil's advocate, aren't bolters twice as good in Marine hands?
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





That's a general rule of all the 11 marine factions, and as a consequence bolters are costed with bolter discipline in mind.

This is not the same.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






A DT wrack squad in 1/2 of a raider does have a 60% points return vs MEQ, that is extremely solid for sure. It also autohits, which limits what you can do to defend against it.

.....DT should just be +1 to wound and eliminate the All Consuming limitation. Army wide rules that powerful are just silly.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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