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Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






From what I've been able to read a Kasrkin regiment is just units of Kasrkin, no heavy weapons platoons or special weapons. The special weapons are given to the Kasrkin so there isn't a need for any.
They're just Veterans with fancy guns and better armour.
Giving Vets something similar to the upgrades seen in the 5th Ed Codex would be an idea I could get behind but giving them Hotshots and Carapace just makes them Scions that don't do para-drops.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

You've been around long enough to know a few of the things I would have done, including going out of my way to try to develop "iconic units" for the big Regiments.


If bringing them back they would clearly be elites (they are literally the elitesof Cadia) and not have the drop troops rule. Give the sarge a melta bomb if you like. What else would change about them?

I like the idea of having a hellgun (assault rather than rapid fire) instead of hotshot, would fit with not having drop troops ability (have to hoof it instead).

Hotshot Las needs to be Assault anyway to help the base Scion.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

 Gert wrote:
From what I've been able to read a Kasrkin regiment is just units of Kasrkin, no heavy weapons platoons or special weapons. The special weapons are given to the Kasrkin so there isn't a need for any.
They're just Veterans with fancy guns and better armour.

This is incorrect, no matter how things shake out. Lore is that candidates for the Kasrkin get picked out at an early age from the Youth Army Platoons, then diverted down specialized training regimens equal to those of the Schola Progenium.

Giving Vets something similar to the upgrades seen in the 5th Ed Codex would be an idea I could get behind but giving them Hotshots and Carapace just makes them Scions that don't do para-drops.

What is it that veterans do then?

Seriously, EXPLAIN WHAT VETERANS DO IN YOUR WORLD? Because in the world of literally every actual Guard player, they're just Special Weapon Squads with extra bodies. They're a trash unit and have been for years, with the only redeeming quality being their BS and extra 2 specials.

This is the whole frigging reason I keep saying scrap the whole book and rework the concept for the ground up. It's why I keep saying that until things actually matter, the Guard is a frigging joke army for anyone not interested in just following netlisted trash.

But no, we have people like you with "BUT MUH ARMEH" as though your being able to use models older than most players should override the rest of us being able to have a functionally unique army. I've got plenty of old models too in my Guard(a whole metal Cadian army, purchased literally THE YEAR BEFORE THEY RELEASED THE PLASTIC CADIANS!)...and I'd gladly give up the ability to simply just keep using them as "Infantry Squad #35052520" to instead actually have the visual language of the Guard tightened up and for the different types(Light Infantry, Jungle Fighters, etc) to make a return as more than just a game of "Let's Play Pretend!" or flavor of the week and instead be tied to specific unit designs.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hotshot Las needs to be Assault anyway to help the base Scion.

Scions need more Orders or pseudo-Orders that alter the way they function. They don't just need Assault on Hotshots.

What Scions need, bluntly, is something that discourages them being used as suicide squads and instead encourages them being used as surgical strike units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 17:03:26


 
   
Made in gb
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Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:

This is incorrect, no matter how things shake out. Lore is that candidates for the Kasrkin get picked out at an early age from the Youth Army Platoons, then diverted down specialized training regimens equal to those of the Schola Progenium.

So they get selected at a young age to become elite troopers of the AM. That's just a Scion but not orphans.

Spoiler:

What is it that veterans do then?

Seriously, EXPLAIN WHAT VETERANS DO IN YOUR WORLD? Because in the world of literally every actual Guard player, they're just Special Weapon Squads with extra bodies. They're a trash unit and have been for years, with the only redeeming quality being their BS and extra 2 specials.

Firstly, chill out. We're talking about toy soldiers and I've disagreed with you in a discussion about said toy soldiers, not insulted your mother.
Secondly, Veterans should get cool things like special explosives, extra sneaky rules, or improved armour but it should be one of those things. If a Reg Doc gives an army-wide buff to stealthiness, then the stealth choice would further the stealth of a Veteran unit. Explosives are fun. Carapace is kind of your bog-standard upgrade for showing a better Guardsman unit. Veterans should give an army an option to have a select group of soldiers operate a little bit outside of their standard doctrine. I'm sure some other things could be added but all would cost points/power exactly like Chapter Command or Drukhari bodyguard units.

Spoiler:
This is the whole frigging reason I keep saying scrap the whole book and rework the concept for the ground up. It's why I keep saying that until things actually matter, the Guard is a frigging joke army for anyone not interested in just following netlisted trash.

I genuinely don't see this whole "AM are unplayable" angle. I played them consistently throughout 8th and had a fairly balanced experience. However, I'm not a firm believer in Math-Hammer and I don't care about ITC/tournament win-loss ratings so it's is really difficult for me to appreciate how people feel about things being good or bad in a competitive sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 17:12:52


 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

Thanks! You've just made it clear that you are someone to ignore. You're clearly reading into posts what [you want from them.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Kanluwen, just out of curiosity, if they were to completely re-build AM, do you think that would make it better, or worse? I'm betting worse. Also, with all the new Cadia packs/Gaunt models dropping, I'm betting they are next in the pipe to get their codex. So why don't we wait until that happens to complain about functional?

Given the way 9th is going I'm betting Las rifles go to S4 assault 3 and Chimeras go to t8, 45points. Sentinels get BS2/WS4 and are now t7.

/S
   
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Right behind you.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Kanluwen, just out of curiosity, if they were to completely re-build AM, do you think that would make it better, or worse? I'm betting worse.

Far better. But then again, I've actually playtested what I'm talking about...and don't have a vested interest in keeping things "as is".
Also, with all the new Cadia packs/Gaunt models dropping, I'm betting they are next in the pipe to get their codex.


"all the new Cadia packs"? It's a single upgrade frame. That they're repackaging Cadian Shock Troop squads with.
Such wow! Much excites! Call me when it's not just a collection of random heads and a few token guns.


As for Gaunt...you know that there's literally zero indication of Gaunt showing up in any future army book, right? The rules for them in 40k are coming with "The Vincula Insurgency" thing.
So why don't we wait until that happens to complain about functional?

"Functional" isn't the same as "interesting to play", nor is it the same as "actual choices to be made". Which is what I continually hammer home as to "why the book needs to be completely rebuilt". It's not an interesting army to play, nor are there actual choices to be made. Netlists are the order of the day for Guard and have been for far, far, far too long.

Cruddace never should have been allowed near the book, and hopefully their search for someone new to head up the 40k team means that he'll be moving on and we can actually see some real changes made.
   
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In My Lab

Then type it up and share it.

Put your money with your mouth is.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Right behind you.

I've done so in the past. Not doing it again when the objections tend to circle around "But that's too radical of changes!" or "what about my models?!".
   
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If you've done it in the past then just put that old stuff in here. If you're implementing change that invalidates swathes of people's armies you can't expect people not to criticise it.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Kanluwen, just out of curiosity, if they were to completely re-build AM, do you think that would make it better, or worse? I'm betting worse.

Far better. But then again, I've actually playtested what I'm talking about...and don't have a vested interest in keeping things "as is".
Also, with all the new Cadia packs/Gaunt models dropping, I'm betting they are next in the pipe to get their codex.


"all the new Cadia packs"? It's a single upgrade frame. That they're repackaging Cadian Shock Troop squads with.
Such wow! Much excites! Call me when it's not just a collection of random heads and a few token guns.


As for Gaunt...you know that there's literally zero indication of Gaunt showing up in any future army book, right? The rules for them in 40k are coming with "The Vincula Insurgency" thing.
So why don't we wait until that happens to complain about functional?

"Functional" isn't the same as "interesting to play", nor is it the same as "actual choices to be made". Which is what I continually hammer home as to "why the book needs to be completely rebuilt". It's not an interesting army to play, nor are there actual choices to be made. Netlists are the order of the day for Guard and have been for far, far, far too long.

Cruddace never should have been allowed near the book, and hopefully their search for someone new to head up the 40k team means that he'll be moving on and we can actually see some real changes made.


Hakuna your tatas eboard tough guy. I was simply saying your faction has gotten more love in this month than a lot of other factions in the last year. I wish I could get a new model for Custodes, or 1k sons, or Alderi. If this is literally what gets you upset than get outside and get some fresh air man. Toy soldiers(TM) run by a gak company is NOT for you.
   
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Right behind you.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Hakuna your tatas eboard tough guy. I was simply saying your faction has gotten more love in this month than a lot of other factions in the last year. I wish I could get a new model for Custodes, or 1k sons, or Alderi. If this is literally what gets you upset than get outside and get some fresh air man. Toy soldiers(TM) run by a gak company is NOT for you.

Valerian and Aleya came out in 2020
Aeldari got Jain Zar and Howling Banshees with "Blood of the Phoenix".
Thousand Sons have a new Sorcerer teased as coming with a battlebox.


Guard got an "upgrade frame" of 10 heads and 7 weapons for a box that came out in 2003 and an announcement of a boxed set of named characters...and you want to pretend that is somehow "more love than a lot of other factions"?

You know what the most recent, permanent Guard release was?
Commissar Severina Raine, in 2019.

Sergeant Ripper Jackson for Catachans? She was a store opening model repurposed and given a Made to Order run.
That Catachan Colonel? He was a store anniversary model repurposed so independent shops could have a big ticket item.

"More love than a lot of other factions", PAH.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I think this has gone way off-topic.

As I said in one of my first posts, Infantry Squads do need something, but it doesn't need to be sweepingly massive and frankly overpowered changes. Just small tweaks to make them a little better individually and give them more options.

As for Veterans, I think they're fine. They just need to be made Troops again. Guard Troop choices should look like this:

- Conscripts: Change Raw Recruits to passing on a 2+ or simply remove it.

- Infantry Platoons (1 Platoon Commander, 2 - 3 Infantry Squads, 0 - 1 Special Weapon Squad, 0 - 1 Heavy Weapon Squad)

- Veterans: No platoon tax and BS3+.

Optionally:
- Grenadiers: Essentially Scions but with no aerial drop, no access to MT stratagems or benefits. In return they can benefit from the regiment keyword.

- Dragoons: Essentially a horse mounted Infantry Squad, has lasguns, no heavy weapon team options but can take 2 special weapons.

Scions should only be Troops in an MT detachment, in an AM detachment they should be Elites.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 01:14:04


 
   
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Right behind you.

Or remove Conscripts entirely, since everyone seems to have decided that Guardsmen should always be awful.

Platoons ain't coming back, ever, unless they radically decide to change up things.

We don't need Dragoons. Ever.
   
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@ Jarms: sounds good to me. Dragoons would be funny especially when some kind of mounted HQ option for non-DKOK regiments and rough riders came back, so that one could make cavalry regiments.

~5750 build and painted 
   
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Spoiler:
Jarms48 wrote:
I think this has gone way off-topic.

As I said in one of my first posts, Infantry Squads do need something, but it doesn't need to be sweepingly massive and frankly overpowered changes. Just small tweaks to make them a little better individually and give them more options.

As for Veterans, I think they're fine. They just need to be made Troops again. Guard Troop choices should look like this:

- Conscripts: Change Raw Recruits to passing on a 2+ or simply remove it.

- Infantry Platoons (1 Platoon Commander, 2 - 3 Infantry Squads, 0 - 1 Special Weapon Squad, 0 - 1 Heavy Weapon Squad)

- Veterans: No platoon tax and BS3+.

Optionally:
- Grenadiers: Essentially Scions but with no aerial drop, no access to MT stratagems or benefits. In return they can benefit from the regiment keyword.

- Dragoons: Essentially a horse mounted Infantry Squad, has lasguns, no heavy weapon team options but can take 2 special weapons.

Scions should only be Troops in an MT detachment, in an AM detachment they should be Elites.


Pretty solid options there. I would love to see a horse-but-not-horse unit.
   
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I wouldn’t mind seeing veterans return to the troops section but I think they’d have to edit the data sheet a little. Just drop the special weapons from 3 per squad to 1 like the regular infantry squad and make the squad LD 7 across the board. You could make a separate elite selection squad to spam special weapons. I’d just rather not have to face waves of cheap and accurate plasma again.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I wouldn’t mind seeing veterans return to the troops section but I think they’d have to edit the data sheet a little. Just drop the special weapons from 3 per squad to 1 like the regular infantry squad and make the squad LD 7 across the board. You could make a separate elite selection squad to spam special weapons. I’d just rather not have to face waves of cheap and accurate plasma again.
I'd remove Veterans and Command Squads, honestly. Veterans are an Infantry Squad with +1BS, access to shotguns, and +2 special weapons. Command Squads are Veterans, but with only 5 models, capped at 1 per officer, and they can take a medi-pack and a regimental standard. Neither is especially inspiring.

I think you could do better by just making shotguns available to basic Infantry, stealing from the Drukhari Favoured Retinue rules, and allowing players to upgrade their Infantry Squads into Veterans with unique skills. Something like:
Regimental Veterans
If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Astra Militarum Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support, Super-heavy Auxiliary or Fortification Network Detachments), then when you muster your army, you can upgrade INFANTRY SQUAD units in those Detachments. If the Detachment is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment, you can upgrade TEMPESTUS SCIONS units that Detachment.

Each time you upgrade one of these units, it gains the VETERANS keyword, and its Power Rating is increased as shown in the table below. If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, then the points value of that unit is also increased by the amount shown in the same table. Make a note on your army roster each time you upgrade a unit using these rules.

A Crusade force cannot start with any upgraded units - to include one in a Crusade force, you must use the Hard-Earned Experience Requisition.

Infantry Squads
For each <REGIMENT> OFFICER unit in your army, one Infantry Squad in the same Detachment can be upgraded to Militarum Veterans. Militarum Veterans have the following additional abilities:
  • Models in this unit have a Ballistic Skill characteristic of 3+.
  • This unit has one Veterans Trait chosen from those listed below.

  • Command Squad: Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in this unit. In addition, each model in this unit can be given one item from the Command Squad Items list. Each unit can only include one of each item.
  • Scouts and Spotters: This unit has the Concealed Positions ability. In addition, each time a ranged attack is allocated to the bearer while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.
  • Demolitions: This unit has the MELTABOMBS keyword. In addition, when a model in this unit makes a ranged attack against an enemy BUILDING or VEHICLE within half its weapon's range, you can re-roll the wound roll.

  • etc

       
    Made in gb
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    I like that idea tbh apart from removing command squads entirely. IMO each Regiment/Company bringing its colours to the battlefield like during the Napoleonic Wars is one of those goofy but cool lore bits that looks cool on the tabletop. There's nothing more inspiring than fighting under the banner of your regiment, maybe the rules just need to reflect that better.
       
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    As far as I understand these upgraded squads if upgraded to command squad could still take standards, right?

    ~5750 build and painted 
       
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    Ah, I did a misread, apologies.
       
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    Regular Dakkanaut




     Gert wrote:
    I like that idea tbh apart from removing command squads entirely. IMO each Regiment/Company bringing its colours to the battlefield like during the Napoleonic Wars is one of those goofy but cool lore bits that looks cool on the tabletop. There's nothing more inspiring than fighting under the banner of your regiment, maybe the rules just need to reflect that better.


    I just want command squads to act similar to GSC familiars. Basically an optional 0 - 4 upgrade added to each officer (company commander, platoon commander, tempestor prime, named officers like Creed, etc). So that means you could still use your command squads as better special weapon squads, but now you’re also risking the lives of your officers.

    It also gives officers some additional wounds. As you could kill off the command squad members first before taking wounds on the officer themselves.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 23:20:23


     
       
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    So something like:

    "Each unit with the <Officer> keyword may take 0-4 Command Squad Veterans. Each CSV is equipped with a Laspistol, Chainsword and Flak Armour.
    A CSV may replace their LP+CS with one of the following:
    -lasgun/shotgun
    -special weapon
    A single CSV may replace their LP+CS with a Banner.
    A single CSV may replace their LP+CS with a Medkit.

    Loyal Retainers - If a <Officer> receives an unsaved wound then on a 4+, a CSV may attempt to protect their commander and the wound is instead taken on the CSV.
    However, if the <Officer> is removed as a casualty, the CSV suffers -1 Ld for the rest of the game."
       
    Made in us
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    Honestly it doesn't seem like Command Squads really have a role is the problem.

    CaptainStabby wrote:
    If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

     jy2 wrote:
    BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

     vipoid wrote:
    Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

     MarsNZ wrote:
    ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
     
       
    Made in gb
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    Morale buff and commander defense should be their role. Banners should keep the Guardsmen from fleeing and the other squad members should be a death buffer for the officers as well as some extra firepower. Apart from that, keep them for people who like flags.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 23:56:59


     
       
    Made in au
    Regular Dakkanaut




     Gert wrote:
    So something like:

    "Each unit with the <Officer> keyword may take 0-4 Command Squad Veterans. Each CSV is equipped with a Laspistol, Chainsword and Flak Armour.
    A CSV may replace their LP+CS with one of the following:
    -lasgun/shotgun
    -special weapon
    A single CSV may replace their LP+CS with a Banner.
    A single CSV may replace their LP+CS with a Medkit.

    Loyal Retainers - If a <Officer> receives an unsaved wound then on a 4+, a CSV may attempt to protect their commander and the wound is instead taken on the CSV.
    However, if the <Officer> is removed as a casualty, the CSV suffers -1 Ld for the rest of the game."


    Basically this, definitely still need the voxcaster as an option. Making them characters means that we can now start making relic banners and standards with different abilities.

    Personally, I'd like to see the regimental standard provide at minimum +1 Ld and reroll morale within 6 inch. A platoon standard would be just reroll morale. The medi-pack should be similar to the current marine one.
       
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    To be honest, they should replace comand squads altogether with just a flag and a radio operator. Make the flag REALLY good, like Custodes flag good, and people will take it. Plus to moral is crap now. Make it plus to BS or WS, or even S/T in combat. Make them actually good. Also, make radios standard in all vehicles. Seriously, why is that a think I need to pay for? It's like, 15pts for your tank to have an engine.
       
    Made in au
    Regular Dakkanaut




    FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
    To be honest, they should replace comand squads altogether with just a flag and a radio operator. Make the flag REALLY good, like Custodes flag good, and people will take it. Plus to moral is crap now. Make it plus to BS or WS, or even S/T in combat. Make them actually good. Also, make radios standard in all vehicles. Seriously, why is that a think I need to pay for? It's like, 15pts for your tank to have an engine.


    I don't want to add too many more elite units. Though if you bring back platoons (making special weapon squads troops), make veterans troops, and removed command squads. That'd free up some space. Having a dedicated medic character, and a standard barrier character would be nice.

    I don't know how good you could make them though:
    - Reroll morale and +1 attack
    - Reroll morale and reroll 1 to hit
    - Reroll morale and infantry count as 2 models on objectives
    - Reroll morale and on a 4+ a dead model can fight before removed

    I do think reroll morale should be apart of every standard.
       
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    Tacoma, WA, USA

    If I was going to redo the Infantry Squad, I would be much more subtle about the changes:

    1) Eliminate the Voice of Command Order First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire. It is so much for so little and crowds out the other orders.

    2) Unit Statblock, wargear, and wargear options stay exactly like they are. That keeps it consistent with the soon to be upgraded Cadian Shock Troops Kit.

    3) Change Vox-Caster ability to read: If an friendly <Regiment> Officer is within 3" of a unit with a vox-caster when using Voice of Command ability, it may issue that order to any <Regiment> Infantry at is within 3" of a <Regiment> unit with a vox-caster.

    4) Add new ability Lasgun Fusillade: When this unit fires 4 or more Lasguns at a target unit, it gains a +1 Hit Modifier on all Lasgun shots at that unit. This enhances Lasguns in a quick to resolve manner and allows it to be combined with the remaining orders.

    5) Add new ability Sniper Specialist: A model firing a Sniper Rifle gains a +1 Hit modifier if the unit Remained Stationary this turn. This makes the Sniper Rifle a more comparable to the other special weapons.

    Unit Points value:
    Infantry Squad
    Unit size: 10 Models
    Unit cost: 60 Points
  • Autocannon: +10 Points
  • Bolt Pistol: +2 Points
  • Boltgun: +2 Points
  • Heavy Bolter: +10 Points
  • Lascannon: +15 Points
  • Missile Launcher: +10 Points
  • Mortar: +10 Points[/list[list]Plasma Pistol: +5 Points
  • Power Sword: +5 Points

  • You will note all the special weapons and vox-caster cost are missing. This is intentional. You now get a free special weapon and a vox-caster as part of the basic unit cost.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 02:57:37


     
       
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    The Lasgun fuselage is a stupid idea. Just say you want BS3+ Infantry.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Also nobody is going to take the Sniper Rifle because it MIGHT hit a little better.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 04:07:00


    CaptainStabby wrote:
    If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

     jy2 wrote:
    BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

     vipoid wrote:
    Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

     MarsNZ wrote:
    ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
     
       
     
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