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Hecaton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
NDA prevent answers to that question, conversation on why some factions are weak is outside that context so can mention some details (above) as its not revealing anything specifically to points or rules, but naming the name of the other party def in the NDA

How long does this NDA last? NDAs must be limited in both time and scope.

may depend on the country you are in but many NDAs also say you cannot discuss the details of an NDA beyond saying "i cannot answer that due to an NDA". but in the US ti can say as an ingeneral it is indeed legal to have an indefinite NDA.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
NDA prevent answers to that question, conversation on why some factions are weak is outside that context so can mention some details (above) as its not revealing anything specifically to points or rules, but naming the name of the other party def in the NDA

How long does this NDA last? NDAs must be limited in both time and scope.

may depend on the country you are in but many NDAs also say you cannot discuss the details of an NDA beyond saying "i cannot answer that due to an NDA". but in the US ti can say as an ingeneral it is indeed legal to have an indefinite NDA.

It's incredibly rare to have indefinite NDAs; anything longer than ten years is unlikely to be enforced, and discussing the terms of the NDA is not going to be covered by terms of that.

I'm sorry but "its covered by an NDA" just means it didn't happen.

Tyel wrote:
I'm sorry but "its covered by an NDA" just means it didn't happen.

Yeah, if someone genuinely has an NDA they aren't going to be dropping hints in a public forum and justifying it with "it isn't technically covered by the NDA". They're going to STFU and not give the people who wrote that NDA any reason to take them to court over a perceived violation. Or they're at least going to do it all with a throwaway account that can't be connected to their real life identity.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The source for this claim is still unclear.

The source doesn't matter as much the actions GW makes do. No other faction, gets 2 books per edition, when they start falling of. Although now it is more like 3 books, because the marine codex got split in half. GW is willing to leave every other faction, no matter how bad the state of it is , like let say IG or Knight in 9th, GK in 8th. But not marines, because marines are the workhorse of the sales in w40k, and sales in w40k are the workhorse for the entire GW sales.

I think that is some cases, for the design team to really wake up to some quality of the game, it is for them to be at a sanctioned GW events and witness it first hand. Then they have this , "so this is what penta flyrants expiriance is" moment. Or when one army shots the other army off the table in 1-2 turns at the highest level of play. Besides sells droping lower, then GW thinks they should, it is the only thing that can make them change stuff in an unplaned by them way.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The source for this claim is still unclear.

The source doesn't matter as much the actions GW makes do. No other faction, gets 2 books per edition, when they start falling of. Although now it is more like 3 books, because the marine codex got split in half. GW is willing to leave every other faction, no matter how bad the state of it is , like let say IG or Knight in 9th, GK in 8th. But not marines, because marines are the workhorse of the sales in w40k, and sales in w40k are the workhorse for the entire GW sales.

I think that is some cases, for the design team to really wake up to some quality of the game, it is for them to be at a sanctioned GW events and witness it first hand. Then they have this , "so this is what penta flyrants expiriance is" moment. Or when one army shots the other army off the table in 1-2 turns at the highest level of play. Besides sells droping lower, then GW thinks they should, it is the only thing that can make them change stuff in an unplaned by them way.

i mean the space marine thing is never going to stop. they sell the most and will always get the attention (main book not secondary factions they are... well secondary). Eldar also rarely stay down, though its not as important to keep them towards the top so much as not in the bottom. Guard occationally gets something but they are towards the same veign where thier player base is fairly dedicated to the faction so they will comb the codex and find the best builds and make less mistakes so tend to get less powerful books. I would think the most history is pointing at the 2 factions which since 4th edition have not had more than a handful of halfway decent builds and outside small tournaments do not win major events and on the rare occasion they do podium in an event they get immediately nerf batted, orks and chaos demons.

Hecaton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
NDA prevent answers to that question, conversation on why some factions are weak is outside that context so can mention some details (above) as its not revealing anything specifically to points or rules, but naming the name of the other party def in the NDA

How long does this NDA last? NDAs must be limited in both time and scope.

may depend on the country you are in but many NDAs also say you cannot discuss the details of an NDA beyond saying "i cannot answer that due to an NDA". but in the US ti can say as an ingeneral it is indeed legal to have an indefinite NDA.

It's incredibly rare to have indefinite NDAs; anything longer than ten years is unlikely to be enforced, and discussing the terms of the NDA is not going to be covered by terms of that.

Wrong. As a former TS-SCI clearance holder, I know there are things I am not allowed to discuss for the next 100+ years, or until such time as the Government "declassifies them". That is essentially an NDA. An Oath under penalty to remain silent on all things. Also, our former president had multiple indefinite NDAs for each of his mistresses, his high school, his teachers in college, and his doctors. They were all "until you are released from this NDA".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


It's incredibly rare to have indefinite NDAs; anything longer than ten years is unlikely to be enforced, and discussing the terms of the NDA is not going to be covered by terms of that.

Wrong. As a former TS-SCI clearance holder, I know there are things I am not allowed to discuss for the next 100+ years, or until such time as the Government "declassifies them". That is essentially an NDA. An Oath under penalty to remain silent on all things. Also, our former president had multiple indefinite NDAs for each of his mistresses, his high school, his teachers in college, and his doctors. They were all "until you are released from this NDA".

To back up Fezzik here, he is correct. NDA's can be indefinite and the ones he signed are called SF312's and apply to classified information. But yeah, even normal NDA's can be indefinite. GW's standard one is fairly long term if I'm remembering the leaked one correctly. And as we all know, GW is sue happy.

I'm just honestly tired of the kneejerk response to competitive play getting outdated FAQs every 6 months that affects things that are no longer relevant anyway, so it's a blanket nerf to things that no longer need them. Especially since they affect the entire game, not just the tournament stuff they are intendedfor.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
NDA prevent answers to that question, conversation on why some factions are weak is outside that context so can mention some details (above) as its not revealing anything specifically to points or rules, but naming the name of the other party def in the NDA

How long does this NDA last? NDAs must be limited in both time and scope.

may depend on the country you are in but many NDAs also say you cannot discuss the details of an NDA beyond saying "i cannot answer that due to an NDA". but in the US ti can say as an ingeneral it is indeed legal to have an indefinite NDA.

It's incredibly rare to have indefinite NDAs; anything longer than ten years is unlikely to be enforced, and discussing the terms of the NDA is not going to be covered by terms of that.

Wrong. As a former TS-SCI clearance holder, I know there are things I am not allowed to discuss for the next 100+ years, or until such time as the Government "declassifies them". That is essentially an NDA. An Oath under penalty to remain silent on all things. Also, our former president had multiple indefinite NDAs for each of his mistresses, his high school, his teachers in college, and his doctors. They were all "until you are released from this NDA".

Clearance is legally very different from a non-clearance NDA for exactly this reason; also, the penalty for breaking one is civil, not criminal. Don't conflate the two.

Citation on that last bit? Also, I wouldn't put it past that guy or his legal team to make NDAs that were vastly overreaching.

I'm sorry but there is a massive difference between an NDA with a government covering classified information - and the claim an NDA covers a chat with someone claiming Orks are made a punching bag because little Timmy plays Marines and if he lost to Orks he'd totally quit the game.

Tyel wrote:
I'm sorry but there is a massive difference between an NDA with a government covering classified information - and the claim an NDA covers a chat with someone claiming Orks are made a punching bag because little Timmy plays Marines and if he lost to Orks he'd totally quit the game.

Sure, violating one gets you sent to federal prison for the rest of your life while violating the other just gets you fired and possibly sued for financial damages. But either way breaking an NDA is stupid and someone dropping hints and hiding behind "BUT NDA LOL" when asked for proof is almost certainly not under an NDA and doesn't know any more than a random fan.

Source: have actually had to sign NDAs for work, and no I'm not even going to tell you what they were about.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'm sorry but there is a massive difference between an NDA with a government covering classified information - and the claim an NDA covers a chat with someone claiming Orks are made a punching bag because little Timmy plays Marines and if he lost to Orks he'd totally quit the game.

Sure, violating one gets you sent to federal prison for the rest of your life while violating the other just gets you fired and possibly sued for financial damages. But either way breaking an NDA is stupid and someone dropping hints and hiding behind "BUT NDA LOL" when asked for proof is almost certainly not under an NDA and doesn't know any more than a random fan.

Source: have actually had to sign NDAs for work, and no I'm not even going to tell you what they were about.

I've signed plenty of NDAs relating to commercial contracts. Its usually the first thing you do when two companies are thinking of working together. Making them out to be a big thing is kind of wild to me.

GW would have infinitely stronger grounds on people leaking codexes etc to the internet (something that almost certainly does breach any NDA - and yet which seems to happen every time at this point) than going "we told them Orks must suck and then they told people on the internet, your honour".

NDAs are by no means a big deal, almost anyone and everyone ends up signing them for really any tech job thats for damn sure.

How does GW explain their blatent bs?

Usually it starts with

"Great news shareholders...."

Not so much these days due to the overall squeeze on stock prices but that just further incentivises them to milk that cow (we're the cow).

SemperMortis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


It's incredibly rare to have indefinite NDAs; anything longer than ten years is unlikely to be enforced, and discussing the terms of the NDA is not going to be covered by terms of that.

Wrong. As a former TS-SCI clearance holder, I know there are things I am not allowed to discuss for the next 100+ years, or until such time as the Government "declassifies them". That is essentially an NDA. An Oath under penalty to remain silent on all things. Also, our former president had multiple indefinite NDAs for each of his mistresses, his high school, his teachers in college, and his doctors. They were all "until you are released from this NDA".

To back up Fezzik here, he is correct. NDA's can be indefinite and the ones he signed are called SF312's and apply to classified information. But yeah, even normal NDA's can be indefinite. GW's standard one is fairly long term if I'm remembering the leaked one correctly. And as we all know, GW is sue happy.

In all seriousness, GW is absolutely the sort of company that would enforce a 100 year NDA on rules that were out of date 97 years ago.

3D printer here, and watching "creators" of Mk1 era Space Marines get taken down by GW over their "infringement" shows just how long GW is willing to push an IP fight. Like, it's a FREE STL on a badly scanned metallic Thunder Warrior mini from the 80s. So 40 years.

And don't tell me I can't conflate Clearance with an NDA. We are literally forced to sign documents that state we would not divulge anything from a secure source, to non-secure sources. That is part of being granted a clearance. Signing a sworn oath form of NDA.

As a matter of fact, my unit was forced to sign SF312s prior to deployment or be slapped with "Non-deployable status". Our military careers were dangled over a forced statement that we would not talk about what happened. All that went out the window with this guy though...gave a full interview to a major American tabloid.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a4753/michael-hensley-0708/

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And don't tell me I can't conflate Clearance with an NDA. We are literally forced to sign documents that state we would not divulge anything from a secure source, to non-secure sources. That is part of being granted a clearance. Signing a sworn oath form of NDA.

I will continue to tell you that they're different.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As a matter of fact, my unit was forced to sign SF312s prior to deployment or be slapped with "Non-deployable status". Our military careers were dangled over a forced statement that we would not talk about what happened. All that went out the window with this guy though...gave a full interview to a major American tabloid.

Cool. GW's don't work like that because it's not a criminal offense to break them.

Tyel wrote:
GW would have infinitely stronger grounds on people leaking codexes etc to the internet (something that almost certainly does breach any NDA - and yet which seems to happen every time at this point) than going "we told them Orks must suck and then they told people on the internet, your honour".

And I'm sure they'd like to nail the people behind those leaks (and I saw a reddit post recently talking about playtesters getting fired for leaking stuff). That doesn't change the fact that if you're under an NDA it's pretty stupid to try to score internet points by dropping hints about stuff even remotely related to that NDA. Even if you're sure you won't get sued you're begging to get fired from your playtesting job, and if you care so little about the playtesting job that you're willing to risk GW thinking you violated the NDA why hide behind "BUT MY NDA" and not leak everything?

The most obvious answer here is that G00fySmiley is just making stuff up and doesn't know any more than the average fan.

Dident chaos just wait somthing like years to get 2 wound marines? Ya chaos and loyalist are difrent armys GTFO Here with your bs cry baby loyalists need everything gak, as if Chaos players would care one bit about loyalist who get everything having to wait a few months. If you don't like it play chaos then you will have those options.



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CadianSgtBob wrote:

Tyel wrote:
GW would have infinitely stronger grounds on people leaking codexes etc to the internet (something that almost certainly does breach any NDA - and yet which seems to happen every time at this point) than going "we told them Orks must suck and then they told people on the internet, your honour".

And I'm sure they'd like to nail the people behind those leaks (and I saw a reddit post recently talking about playtesters getting fired for leaking stuff). That doesn't change the fact that if you're under an NDA it's pretty stupid to try to score internet points by dropping hints about stuff even remotely related to that NDA. Even if you're sure you won't get sued you're begging to get fired from your playtesting job, and if you care so little about the playtesting job that you're willing to risk GW thinking you violated the NDA why hide behind "BUT MY NDA" and not leak everything?

The most obvious answer here is that G00fySmiley is just making stuff up and doesn't know any more than the average fan.

what's stupid is NDA in general they should be illegal.

Boosykes wrote:
what's stupid is NDA in general they should be illegal.

As long as they're limited in time and scope they can be reasonable. Indefinite NDAs (for things other than, like, national security) are usually tripe.

NDA's are pretty much the only way to work with a third party on new products, industry secrets or classified information.

It's essentially a contract where you agree to be fined if you disclose certain secrets, and you simply don't get access to those secrets if you refuse to accept. No one forces you to sign, but then you don't get any information either and the cooperation is most likely terminated.

Keep in mind that contract laws differ vastly between countries, an NDA that would be totally fine in the US or UK could possibly have reduced or no effect in Germany.

Boosykes wrote:
what's stupid is NDA in general they should be illegal.

Let me guess, you're 13 years old and think that stealing movies and games is the best way to fight back against the man?

NDAs are a basic part of how the world works. Businesses can't function if they can't do things like talk to a potential vendor about a contract without that vendor immediately turning around and selling all of the data (data which they need to provide the thing they're being paid for) to a competing business. Sorry if this gets in the way of getting an ego boost by posting inside information for imaginary internet points but that is a sacrifice we'll all just have to make.


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Hecaton wrote:
As long as they're limited in time and scope they can be reasonable. Indefinite NDAs (for things other than, like, national security) are usually tripe.

Scope yes, time no. Putting a sandwich shop employee under an NDA and non-compete agreement because they know the exact number of ham slices to put on a large sub is stupid. But when you're talking about actual business secrets there's nothing wrong with an indefinite NDA. There's no time period after which it would be reasonable for me to reveal my employer's proprietary information on the details of a manufacturing process, specs for unreleased products, etc. None of that has any public interest value.

 Jidmah wrote:
NDA's are pretty much the only way to work with a third party on new products, industry secrets or classified information.

It's essentially a contract where you agree to be fined if you disclose certain secrets, and you simply don't get access to those secrets if you refuse to accept. No one forces you to sign, but then you don't get any information either and the cooperation is most likely terminated.

Keep in mind that contract laws differ vastly between countries, an NDA that would be totally fine in the US or UK could possibly have reduced or no effect in Germany.

Not just bussiness by the way. When your in a sports school first your parents and then you sign an agreement that you will not talk about what is going on durning training, what supplementation you take or if you take it at all, the school takes care of your injuries with school contracted doctors and your parents sign up an agreement that it is the trainers and the school which will be informed about your health, and that in case death or injury outside of school, school events, training camps, or trips to or from them the school takes no responsibility what happens to you, and the parents have to sign up that they will not go to court to try to get money from the school. Such documents are signed up each school year. And the only difference is that at 18, you signed them and not your parents. And there is some extra paper work, if you live in the school dorms or are a girl. But about those I only know that they exist.


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CadianSgtBob 805861 11396510 wrote:

NDAs are a basic part of how the world works. Businesses can't function if they can't do things like talk to a potential vendor about a contract without that vendor immediately turning around and selling all of the data (data which they need to provide the thing they're being paid for) to a competing business. Sorry if this gets in the way of getting an ego boost by posting inside information for imaginary internet points but that is a sacrifice we'll all just have to make.
.

But that is exactly what happens. My uncle was on a team which was producing anti blood clotting medicin. And in less then a month, the company in China that produced them start offering an identical drug only cheaper. Including on the polish market. If all nations and companies got rich by stealing stuff from others, then not doing it yourself. Especialy when you are on a lower technoglogical level seems just stupid. Look at the turkish, they have great success with their bayraktar, and the way they did it is by taking stuff from other companies without a license. And it was only after they made big money, the company started to create a version of their own.

Karol wrote:
Look at the turkish, they have great success with their bayraktar, and the way they did it is by taking stuff from other companies without a license. And it was only after they made big money, the company started to create a version of their own.

To be fair to the Turks they bought those bits, then got embargo'd and then did either a series of copies or in some cases 'secret' deals for the specs.


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CadianSgtBob wrote:

Sure, violating one gets you sent to federal prison for the rest of your life while violating the other just gets you fired and possibly sued for financial damages. But either way breaking an NDA is stupid and someone dropping hints and hiding behind "BUT NDA LOL" when asked for proof is almost certainly not under an NDA and doesn't know any more than a random fan.

Source: have actually had to sign NDAs for work, and no I'm not even going to tell you what they were about.

Well surely you can say the compartment name if it isn't OS?

I can't speak to the states, but a gulf of difference in the UK between the official secrets act (bound for unspecified duration, i.e. life but with judges interpretation based on time and content) and commercial contracts.

Karol wrote:
But that is exactly what happens. My uncle was on a team which was producing anti blood clotting medicin. And in less then a month, the company in China that produced them start offering an identical drug only cheaper. Including on the polish market. If all nations and companies got rich by stealing stuff from others, then not doing it yourself. Especialy when you are on a lower technoglogical level seems just stupid. Look at the turkish, they have great success with their bayraktar, and the way they did it is by taking stuff from other companies without a license. And it was only after they made big money, the company started to create a version of their own.

I will set aside the moral issue and just mention that there is a huge difference between breaking an NDA because a competitor handed you a large pile of money for your employer's secrets and breaking an NDA to score imaginary internet points and impress people with the fact that you have inside information.


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The_Real_Chris wrote:
Well surely you can say the compartment name if it isn't OS?

I can't speak to the states, but a gulf of difference in the UK between the official secrets act (bound for unspecified duration, i.e. life but with judges interpretation based on time and content) and commercial contracts.

I'm not sure what you mean by compartment name or OS, I'm guessing that's a UK thing? But yes, in the US there is a difference between classified information and NDAs. Classified information is a government-only thing with criminal penalties for breaking the rules, NDAs are a contract signed between two parties with only civil or employment penalties for breaking it. Your company can refuse to hire you unless you sign an unlimited-duration NDA but the only punishment for breaking it is getting sued for damages and fired (and blacklisted from ever working in the industry again).