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I mean, if Loss of Sang did that to the BA, what do we want to speculate the loss of Bobby would do to the Ultras? Did they ever actually suffer a "loss of primarch event" the first time, or were they just Ultra sad?

Well, Guilliman never died the first time so it was never the same.

Plus, Sanguinius was kind of that Next Level of Primarch. Beloved by all, hero of the Siege, cursed with the Red Thirst, a relatively powerful Psyker.

He was also killed by a Pantheon-empowered Horus, nobody else had that.

If Calgar can defeat an Avatar, then Abaddon can defeat Guilliman. It's all just a matter of context. The Avatar that Calgar killed had already fought numerous Terminators and taken hits from heavy weapons fire. The same sort of scenario would work for Abaddon, where Gulliman gets blasted numerous times, and is finally felled by either Drachnayen or the Talon of Horus in the hands of The Big Abb.

Not that the writers would allow it. Either that or they'd do something as eye-rolling as Ghazgull gettin his head sewed back on. Everybody involved has the I Am Named perk.

Two things about the Space Wolves -

First, there's no indication that Russ is dead. He left, and there's been no word of him since. If someone had killed him, whoever pulled it off would probably taunt the Space Wolves over it. So he's probably still alive.

Second, the Space Wolves problem is tied to a flaw in the gene-seed causing physical mutation. But this flaw is apparently somehow stabilized by Fenris (which is why the lone successor chapter turned out poorly).

 Insectum7 wrote:
If Calgar can defeat an Avatar, then Abaddon can defeat Guilliman. It's all just a matter of context. The Avatar that Calgar killed had already fought numerous Terminators and taken hits from heavy weapons fire. The same sort of scenario would work for Abaddon, where Gulliman gets blasted numerous times, and is finally felled by either Drachnayen or the Talon of Horus in the hands of The Big Abb.

Not that the writers would allow it. Either that or they'd do something as eye-rolling as Ghazgull gettin his head sewed back on. Everybody involved has the I Am Named perk.

And nobody has that quite like Abaddon. Mr Can Do No Wrong. Mr Consequences Are For Wimps. I don’t recall him ever getting his head kicked in. It’s happened to everyone else, even Gahz got decapitated, then recapitated. But Abaddon just….doesnt.

Which is why it’s high time he faced a Primarch, and got his dues. Not to deth. Just enough to remove him from the galactic board for a while. Teach him some caution about avoiding very angry Demi-gods.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If Calgar can defeat an Avatar, then Abaddon can defeat Guilliman. It's all just a matter of context. The Avatar that Calgar killed had already fought numerous Terminators and taken hits from heavy weapons fire. The same sort of scenario would work for Abaddon, where Gulliman gets blasted numerous times, and is finally felled by either Drachnayen or the Talon of Horus in the hands of The Big Abb.

Not that the writers would allow it. Either that or they'd do something as eye-rolling as Ghazgull gettin his head sewed back on. Everybody involved has the I Am Named perk.

And nobody has that quite like Abaddon. Mr Can Do No Wrong. Mr Consequences Are For Wimps. I don’t recall him ever getting his head kicked in. It’s happened to everyone else, even Gahz got decapitated, then recapitated. But Abaddon just….doesnt.

Which is why it’s high time he faced a Primarch, and got his dues. Not to deth. Just enough to remove him from the galactic board for a while. Teach him some caution about avoiding very angry Demi-gods.

One comes to mind:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If Calgar can defeat an Avatar, then Abaddon can defeat Guilliman. It's all just a matter of context. The Avatar that Calgar killed had already fought numerous Terminators and taken hits from heavy weapons fire. The same sort of scenario would work for Abaddon, where Gulliman gets blasted numerous times, and is finally felled by either Drachnayen or the Talon of Horus in the hands of The Big Abb.

Not that the writers would allow it. Either that or they'd do something as eye-rolling as Ghazgull gettin his head sewed back on. Everybody involved has the I Am Named perk.

And nobody has that quite like Abaddon. Mr Can Do No Wrong. Mr Consequences Are For Wimps. I don’t recall him ever getting his head kicked in. It’s happened to everyone else, even Gahz got decapitated, then recapitated. But Abaddon just….doesnt.

Which is why it’s high time he faced a Primarch, and got his dues. Not to deth. Just enough to remove him from the galactic board for a while. Teach him some caution about avoiding very angry Demi-gods.

Chaos gets their teeth kicked in metaphorically all the time in 40K, I don't think it has to happen literally to Abby as well. Chaos already looks like cartoon villains most of the time and their plans usually fail, it wouldn't help the setting to make them look even weaker.
If you wanna stomp ma Abby I want Angron to stomp Guilliman in return .

 Haighus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If Calgar can defeat an Avatar, then Abaddon can defeat Guilliman. It's all just a matter of context. The Avatar that Calgar killed had already fought numerous Terminators and taken hits from heavy weapons fire. The same sort of scenario would work for Abaddon, where Gulliman gets blasted numerous times, and is finally felled by either Drachnayen or the Talon of Horus in the hands of The Big Abb.

Not that the writers would allow it. Either that or they'd do something as eye-rolling as Ghazgull gettin his head sewed back on. Everybody involved has the I Am Named perk.

And nobody has that quite like Abaddon. Mr Can Do No Wrong. Mr Consequences Are For Wimps. I don’t recall him ever getting his head kicked in. It’s happened to everyone else, even Gahz got decapitated, then recapitated. But Abaddon just….doesnt.

Which is why it’s high time he faced a Primarch, and got his dues. Not to deth. Just enough to remove him from the galactic board for a while. Teach him some caution about avoiding very angry Demi-gods.

One comes to mind:

Spoiler:

He has a very close shave against an aged Sigismund, who I think took out one of Abaddon's hearts.

You beat me to it! Granted, I think he was a fair bit less chaos-y at the time. He may be harder to take now than he was then. Granted, it's hard to be the dark lord of the traitor warbands if half your lore involves you getting your teeth kicked in.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If Calgar can defeat an Avatar, then Abaddon can defeat Guilliman. It's all just a matter of context. The Avatar that Calgar killed had already fought numerous Terminators and taken hits from heavy weapons fire. The same sort of scenario would work for Abaddon, where Gulliman gets blasted numerous times, and is finally felled by either Drachnayen or the Talon of Horus in the hands of The Big Abb.

Not that the writers would allow it. Either that or they'd do something as eye-rolling as Ghazgull gettin his head sewed back on. Everybody involved has the I Am Named perk.

And nobody has that quite like Abaddon. Mr Can Do No Wrong. Mr Consequences Are For Wimps. I don’t recall him ever getting his head kicked in. It’s happened to everyone else, even Gahz got decapitated, then recapitated. But Abaddon just….doesnt.

Which is why it’s high time he faced a Primarch, and got his dues. Not to deth. Just enough to remove him from the galactic board for a while. Teach him some caution about avoiding very angry Demi-gods.

One comes to mind:

Spoiler:

He has a very close shave against an aged Sigismund, who I think took out one of Abaddon's hearts.

You beat me to it! Granted, I think he was a fair bit less chaos-y at the time. He may be harder to take now than he was then. Granted, it's hard to be the dark lord of the traitor warbands if half your lore involves you getting your teeth kicked in.

Agreed. Given the reputation of his opponent, I don't think it would b seen as particularly shameful amongst Astartes either, especially as Abaddon did win, albeit with significant wounds. I think only one other Astartes had a comparable reputation as a duellist, maybe two.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, I’m hoping for something regarding the Ynnari. They’re a loose thread that’s been flopping around for much too long, and I’d welcome more info and maybe even a dedicated Codex.

Lore wise. Whilst likely not a popular one? I want to see the death of Abaddon. Whilst central to many events, he’s a bit boring these days. Have him bumped off, Chaos scatter, and become a mess of multiple threats all doing their own thing. Let Chaos be actually chaotic for a change, rather than suspiciously well organised. Or at least have him removed from the galactic arena for a good while.

I'd guess they're keeping the Ynnari around for at least one of if not all of the other Dead Primarchs, before turning them fully loose. I'd even expect a plot twist here or there where the Ynnari claim or disclaim resurrecting a dead primarch in opposition to whatever reality was i.e. taking credit for the resurrection of Vulkan when it was really his Perpetual Status kicking in after a really long delay due his despair over being alone etc -Or ignoring them forever in the future. I'm worried they don't get around to bringing every Primarch (or a Primarch Adjacent Subsititute) back before they change gears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet the Blood Angels and Space Woofs remain coherent and effective fighting forces. Iron Hands too.

But I’m meaning during a given campaign. Chaos is a bit like Orks, in that there’s not always a clear line of succession should the High Heedyin get themselves dead. Whilst there are exceptions with Chaos, where a given force is a coalition of warbands, slaying the Head Honcho is still going to impact them more than Loyalists losing say, a Chapter Master.

Its the payoff. All the Orks follow Ghaz because he's going to give them a good fight. If he dies, they can all die, and you don't die in a good fight, you win.

Abaddon promises rewards to the warbands if they fight for him. If Abaddon dies, he's not going to pay them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
The Lore will always end up in the Status Quo because no one wants their faction written out of the game functionally speaking.

No one wants to be the "weakest faction in lore" that is "going nowhere and being defeated on all fronts".

Which is basically what you need for the status to change.


At least cutting the Imperium in half they'd still be the biggest singular power in the Galaxy

The End Result status quo will always remain the same, but GW has been pretty good at making it FEEL like the status quo is changing.

Chaos destroys Cadia. The Imperium is on the Ropes.
Guilliman Resurrects, Chaos is on the Ropes.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

They are moving so fast with the fluff that I don't even want to advance the plot at this point. I want to see more novels and other official materials related to not only current events but previous major campaigns. The universe is so vast and the focus on a few characters/factions is insulting.

bibotot wrote:
They are moving so fast with the fluff that I don't even want to advance the plot at this point. I want to see more novels and other official materials related to not only current events but previous major campaigns. The universe is so vast and the focus on a few characters/factions is insulting.

I'm hoping/suspecting they do have a deluge of books and short stories waiting to come out. They've reintroduced some big characters that throw a monkey wrench in a lot of the for lack of a better word "heirarchy" of the universe. 3 Chaos Primarchs vs 2 Loyalist is not a winning game for the Loyalists. How do Gulliman and Johnson shake out both of their returns? What about Azrael/Calgar and Johnson/Gulliman? Neither of those have much resolutoin yet.

Breton wrote:

bibotot wrote:
They are moving so fast with the fluff that I don't even want to advance the plot at this point. I want to see more novels and other official materials related to not only current events but previous major campaigns. The universe is so vast and the focus on a few characters/factions is insulting.

I'm hoping/suspecting they do have a deluge of books and short stories waiting to come out. They've reintroduced some big characters that throw a monkey wrench in a lot of the for lack of a better word "heirarchy" of the universe. 3 Chaos Primarchs vs 2 Loyalist is not a winning game for the Loyalists. How do Gulliman and Johnson shake out both of their returns? What about Azrael/Calgar and Johnson/Gulliman? Neither of those have much resolutoin yet.

I don't think a god-aligned Daemon Primarch is as big a game changer as a standard Primarch. Daemon princedom comes with some major costs, and the elevated Primarchs will see things through the lense of their patron God whether they realise it or not, and this will undoubtedly affect their choice of strategy and tactics. Their grasp on realspace is also weakened as the price of their immortality. The counterpoint is that the Daemon Primarchs will always return again if defeated, but they do seem to be easier to defeat.

For example, I cannot imagine the Grey Knights being able to defeat Heresy-era Angron in the way they banished Daemon Angron during the 1st War for Armageddon.

The effect on the non-aligned Deamon Primarchs is less predictable, because GW has mostly dropped the idea of unaligned Daemon princes and hasn't explored the undivided Primarchs for some time. I suspect that Lorgar and Purturabo are much more fearsome advesaries at a strategic level than Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim.

 Haighus wrote:

Breton wrote:

bibotot wrote:
They are moving so fast with the fluff that I don't even want to advance the plot at this point. I want to see more novels and other official materials related to not only current events but previous major campaigns. The universe is so vast and the focus on a few characters/factions is insulting.

I'm hoping/suspecting they do have a deluge of books and short stories waiting to come out. They've reintroduced some big characters that throw a monkey wrench in a lot of the for lack of a better word "heirarchy" of the universe. 3 Chaos Primarchs vs 2 Loyalist is not a winning game for the Loyalists. How do Gulliman and Johnson shake out both of their returns? What about Azrael/Calgar and Johnson/Gulliman? Neither of those have much resolutoin yet.

I don't think a god-aligned Daemon Primarch is as big a game changer as a standard Primarch. Daemon princedom comes with some major costs, and the elevated Primarchs will see things through the lense of their patron God whether they realise it or not, and this will undoubtedly affect their choice of strategy and tactics. Their grasp on realspace is also weakened as the price of their immortality. The counterpoint is that the Daemon Primarchs will always return again if defeated, but they do seem to be easier to defeat.

For example, I cannot imagine the Grey Knights being able to defeat Heresy-era Angron in the way they banished Daemon Angron during the 1st War for Armageddon.

The effect on the non-aligned Deamon Primarchs is less predictable, because GW has mostly dropped the idea of unaligned Daemon princes and hasn't explored the undivided Primarchs for some time. I suspect that Lorgar and Purturabo are much more fearsome advesaries at a strategic level than Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim.

I'm not talking about "beating" them. I'm talking about how they interact with Abaddon trying to hire mercenary warbands for his Black Crusades. I'm talking about how both types of Primarchs interact with their "First Captain" sons - be it Gulliman with Calgar (and other UM founded Chapter Masters), or Lorgar with his Dark Apostles, and so on (though obviously Lorgar isn't technically back yet) There are at least two heirarchies that get upset wihen the Primarch(s) return: Their little fiefdom of Legion/Chapters, and their place in the universe as a whole. They've dumped 5 Primarchs back into the world and fluffed almost none of this out. A little for Gulliman but not enough, almost none for the other four.

Breton wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Breton wrote:

bibotot wrote:
They are moving so fast with the fluff that I don't even want to advance the plot at this point. I want to see more novels and other official materials related to not only current events but previous major campaigns. The universe is so vast and the focus on a few characters/factions is insulting.

I'm hoping/suspecting they do have a deluge of books and short stories waiting to come out. They've reintroduced some big characters that throw a monkey wrench in a lot of the for lack of a better word "heirarchy" of the universe. 3 Chaos Primarchs vs 2 Loyalist is not a winning game for the Loyalists. How do Gulliman and Johnson shake out both of their returns? What about Azrael/Calgar and Johnson/Gulliman? Neither of those have much resolutoin yet.

I don't think a god-aligned Daemon Primarch is as big a game changer as a standard Primarch. Daemon princedom comes with some major costs, and the elevated Primarchs will see things through the lense of their patron God whether they realise it or not, and this will undoubtedly affect their choice of strategy and tactics. Their grasp on realspace is also weakened as the price of their immortality. The counterpoint is that the Daemon Primarchs will always return again if defeated, but they do seem to be easier to defeat.

For example, I cannot imagine the Grey Knights being able to defeat Heresy-era Angron in the way they banished Daemon Angron during the 1st War for Armageddon.

The effect on the non-aligned Deamon Primarchs is less predictable, because GW has mostly dropped the idea of unaligned Daemon princes and hasn't explored the undivided Primarchs for some time. I suspect that Lorgar and Purturabo are much more fearsome advesaries at a strategic level than Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim.

I'm not talking about "beating" them. I'm talking about how they interact with Abaddon trying to hire mercenary warbands for his Black Crusades. I'm talking about how both types of Primarchs interact with their "First Captain" sons - be it Gulliman with Calgar (and other UM founded Chapter Masters), or Lorgar with his Dark Apostles, and so on (though obviously Lorgar isn't technically back yet) There are at least two heirarchies that get upset wihen the Primarch(s) return: Their little fiefdom of Legion/Chapters, and their place in the universe as a whole. They've dumped 5 Primarchs back into the world and fluffed almost none of this out. A little for Gulliman but not enough, almost none for the other four.

I'm a bit confused. You said the following line:

3 Chaos Primarchs vs 2 Loyalist is not a winning game for the Loyalists.

And in the other thread you said:

Breton wrote:
And for me, that means adding another Loyalist Primarch so they're even. 3 Chaos Primarchs can't take over the Imperium by having two of them tie up Gulliman and Johnson while the third takes down Terra not being an option because of internecine squabbling between the 3 is pretty weak plot armor.

Which suggests you do think 3 traitor Primarchs is a strategic imbalance that will lead to a loss for the Imperium. I was responding to that point specifically, in that I don't think the Primarchs of the cult legions are a strategic match for Guilliman or the Lion due to the flaws of their godly patrons and daemonic natures. In fact, I think that either Guilliman or the Lion would be enough alone to counter the 4 godly Daemon Primarchs, because it is in the lore that a Primarch is not required in person to banish them in combat and the two loyalist Primarchs are strategic masterminds uncorrupted by the perspectives of individual Chaos gods.

This is a lore perspective. From a release perspective it makes sense to match the loyalist and traitor Primarch releases, but I think that will tip the lore balance in favour of the Imperium until GW figures out what they want to do with Perturabo and Lorgar. Well, it won't because GW these days writes simplistic to-and-fro narratives were nothing actually changes, but hey ho.

 Haighus wrote:

I'm a bit confused. You said the following line:

3 Chaos Primarchs vs 2 Loyalist is not a winning game for the Loyalists.

And in the other thread you said:

Breton wrote:
And for me, that means adding another Loyalist Primarch so they're even. 3 Chaos Primarchs can't take over the Imperium by having two of them tie up Gulliman and Johnson while the third takes down Terra not being an option because of internecine squabbling between the 3 is pretty weak plot armor.

Which suggests you do think 3 traitor Primarchs is a strategic imbalance that will lead to a loss for the Imperium. I was responding to that point specifically, in that I don't think the Primarchs of the cult legions are a strategic match for Guilliman or the Lion due to the flaws of their godly patrons and daemonic natures. In fact, I think that either Guilliman or the Lion would be enough alone to counter the 4 godly Daemon Primarchs, because it is in the lore that a Primarch is not required in person to banish them in combat and the two loyalist Primarchs are strategic masterminds uncorrupted by the perspectives of individual Chaos gods.

This is a lore perspective. From a release perspective it makes sense to match the loyalist and traitor Primarch releases, but I think that will tip the lore balance in favour of the Imperium until GW figures out what they want to do with Perturabo and Lorgar. Well, it won't because GW these days writes simplistic to-and-fro narratives were nothing actually changes, but hey ho.

The other way around:
I don't think Gulliman and the Lion are a Strategic and/or Tactical match for Magnus, Mortarion AND Angron - either the odd-man-out Primarch gets to curb stomp a "mere" Chapter Master, or two Heretic Primarchs get to double team and beat down one Loyalist while the other one-and-one tie each other up.

Obviously the point (for GW) is to maintain a status quo in the universe while still making it FEEL LIKE the world is changing. I also believe they're doing it in a way to change-up the historical rivalries. They didn't bring back Lorgar for Gulliman, or Russ for Magnus. Or Russ for Angron. But to get back to the point you're questioning - Gulliman might be the strategic King, but he can only be in one place at a time. Johnson might be The Hunter Incarnate, but he can also only be in one place at a time. Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus can be in 3 places at once - Plus Gulliman's "First Captain" Calgar is busy dealing with Horus's first Captain Abaddon now that he's not playing Speedbump to Mortarion until Gulliman could return.

You don't need to be in 3 places at once to counter the 3 traitor Primarchs. There was no loyalist Primarch to defeat Angron at Armageddon. There was no loyalist Primarch to banish Magnus at The Battle of the Fang or the Siege of the Fenris system. The traitor Primarchs are not the same as they once were, in exchange for true immortality. Dedication to a god of Chaos is a trap, even for a being as mighty as a Primarch.

Also, being a daemon of their patron means they are as committed to the Great Game within the Warp as much (if not more) as to realspace concerns, so bickering between the traitor Primarchs is a given as a direct result of their god-aligned natures.

Essentially, the loyalist Primarchs only need to marshall forces and ensure sufficient strength is available to counter the traitor Primarchs at a strategic level, and non-Primarch forces can be sent to actually banish the traitor Primarchs back to the Warp. Being Primarchs, they can also manage this strategic control whilst committed to frontline combat.

As mentioned, the Daemon Primarchs unaligned with a Chaos god are likely much less vulnerable to the blindspots of a given patron, so I think they will be a very different matter at a strategic level.

Of course, modern GW probably doesn't care about any of this characterisation and will make a given character as dumb or as invincible as needed for the current narrative, previous lore be damned.

In the novel Godblight Mortarion's efforts to attack Ultramar and hunt down Guilliman are frustrated by Tzeentch-aligned forces attacking the Scourge Stars (the mini-empire that Nurgle had carved out to the north of Ultramar). Even if there are more Daemon Primarchs, their nature as followers of their respective gods will lead to internecine fighting that ends up being a hindrance rather than a benefit. All the Daemon Primarchs are very self-centred, even the Chaos Undivided ones, so they are unlikely to work together and will pursue their own individual schemes.

Valrak likes to cover lore bits about Johnson and his interactions with his chapters. The chapter masters are going along with what Johnson has been doing, but they're apparently not entirely happy with everything. They've also noted some odd behavior on Johnson"s part, such as going alone into Luthor's (now empty) cell, and apparently having conversations conversations with an unknown (and unheard) party.

Eumerin wrote:
Valrak likes to cover lore bits about Johnson and his interactions with his chapters. The chapter masters are going along with what Johnson has been doing, but they're apparently not entirely happy with everything. They've also noted some odd behavior on Johnson"s part, such as going alone into Luthor's (now empty) cell, and apparently having conversations conversations with an unknown (and unheard) party.

Where is that? I haven't even seen any (new) books with the Lion other than the one to sell his model by giving his wargear backstory.

Breton wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
Valrak likes to cover lore bits about Johnson and his interactions with his chapters. The chapter masters are going along with what Johnson has been doing, but they're apparently not entirely happy with everything. They've also noted some odd behavior on Johnson"s part, such as going alone into Luthor's (now empty) cell, and apparently having conversations with an unknown (and unheard) party.

Where is that? I haven't even seen any (new) books with the Lion other than the one to sell his model by giving his wargear backstory.

Check Valrak's YouTube videos. That's where he's posting the info. And he includes the source in each of his videos. There are multiple videos with updated lore on Johnson.

I will say that afaik none of it is from Black Library stuff.

Eumerin wrote:

Breton wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
Valrak likes to cover lore bits about Johnson and his interactions with his chapters. The chapter masters are going along with what Johnson has been doing, but they're apparently not entirely happy with everything. They've also noted some odd behavior on Johnson"s part, such as going alone into Luthor's (now empty) cell, and apparently having conversations with an unknown (and unheard) party.

Where is that? I haven't even seen any (new) books with the Lion other than the one to sell his model by giving his wargear backstory.

Check Valrak's YouTube videos. That's where he's posting the info. And he includes the source in each of his videos. There are multiple videos with updated lore on Johnson.

I will say that afaik none of it is from Black Library stuff.

No campaign books either since we haven't really had one. Maybe the Crusade/Pariah Nexus stuff. I have a hard time watching Valrak. Its a style thing.